National Institute for Literacy - Focus On Basics Discussion List

I am pleased to welcome you to our discussion on tranisitioning from getting a GED to enrolling in postsecondary education. We will hear from our guest speakers, Barbara Garner, Cynthia Zafft and Sandy Goodman, and hopefully from many of you as we discuss the findings of John Tyler and Magnus Lofstrom, which are described in the article below.

Our plan was to first hear an overview of the research and its implications from Barbara Garner, but her introductory message has been lost in transit, and she is stuck in Denver without e-mail access (due to snow and flight cancellations). Hopefully she will be here tomorrow! In the meantime, I would like to invite you all to send in comments about your reaction to the findings of this study.

Cynthia and Sandy will also introduce themselves, and discuss transition strategies after we have covered the research implications.

It's pretty common knowledge these days that at least some college is necessary for economic success. Growing numbers of ABE programs are putting into place transition programs to help their learners enter and succeed in postsecondary school. And, many GED students cite entry into college as one of the reasons they're getting their GEDs. With all that motivation, one might think that GED holders would be enrolling in postsecondary schools in droves.

Researchers John Tyler and Magnus Lofstrom examined the impact that earning a GED has on the postsecondary enrollment of high school dropouts, relative to what would have happened to dropouts had they stayed in school. Setting up the research question this way, they hoped to capture the role of the GED (vs. other factors) in postsecondary enrollment.

Their study, using data from Texas, revealed that only 20 percent of Texas GED holders enrolled in a postsecondary institution in Texas within three years of getting a GED. In contrast, 38 percent of high school completers with profiles similar to the GED holders were enrolled in postsecondary education within 3 years. Other data show that GED holders were achieving Associate's degrees at lower rates than high school completers with similar profiles.

Why are GED holders failing to enter college at the rates one might assume (and hope) they would? Tyler notes that the data they used was from 2001, and therefore wouldn't reflect growing attempts on the part of ABE programs to ensure that students enter and succeed in postsecondary.

What do you know about the students who earn GEDs at your program? Are they entering college? If not, what's keeping them from doing so? What might help them?

Since more high school completers with academic skills similar to those of GED holders enter college than do GED holders, a case could be made that more emphasis should be placed on re-enrolling high school leavers back into high school. Any thoughts on this?

Greetings from snowy Boston! I direct the National College Transition Network (NCTN), which is located at World Education. For me, the work of John Tyler and his colleagues has been extremely powerful and helpful in telling us why students need to move beyond the GED to postsecondary education.

The National College Transition Network is a relatively new organization. We began in 2003 and initially focused on promising practices learned from 25 adult education transition programs participating in a regional project, the New England ABE-to-College Transition Project. Now, we bring together the work of practitioners, administrators, policy-makers and researchers from around the country, all are people interested in adult transition. There's a lot more to be said but, since a picture is worth a thousand words, you might prefer touring our websites:
http://www.collegetransition.org
http://www.collegeforadults.org

Back to John's work. In the FOB article, "Is the GED an Effective Route to Postsecondary Education?" you mention that GED holders, when they do go on to college, only accumulate 7.3 credits within three years compared to 32.8 credits for all high school grads. Does your research show which courses students take or at what level they begin when they enter college?

Cynthia Zafft, Director
National College Transition Network (NCTN)
World Education, Inc.
Boston, MA

While we wait for Barb to dig herself out of the snow, I was wondering if others might want to just jump into the discussion. What do people think about the low number of GED holders that do go on? I was actually wondering if the "low" percentage of those enrolling in postsecondary education in Texas, 20 percent, might sound "high" in some places. And, what does the term postsecondary education really include?

Do you find that more of your students feel the pressure to go on, especially if many of the jobs that pay more than minimum wage require postsecondary education? Is it still a pretty hard sell? And, if students say they are going on, what do you hear back from them about their experience? For those of you with transition components, what have you found?

I am not sure if this would be considered a "transition" model, but at our college ABE may provide supplemental instruction to students already enrolled in credit classes. For example, students enrolled for college credit classes may also be enrolled in ABE. These students test below the NRS level 6 and therefore are eligible for ABE. I would like to know if other ABE programs do this and, more importantly, whether you count these students in your ABE reports as ABE students (only for the time that ABE serves the student and also complying with state assessment policies).

What you describe is more of a retention model, which is a very important component of a good transition program. However, the first part of a good transition program has to do with access, as I describe in another email. Once you get students in, you need to support them to make sure that they stay.

I think that last week there was a question about the reason for there being more HS grads than GED grads going to college.

I think that the reason is pretty obvious. Many immigrants and HS drop outs seek to get employment. At some point they realize that it is hard to get employed w/o a GED. They seek a GED certificate to improve their chances to get employed or better paying jobs. Many do not see themselves as college material.

Transitional programs are an indispensable tool to ensure that GED students consider college as an alternative. In our program we have been transitioning students from GED to college for many years. We have identified barriers that have to do with access as well as with retention.

In terms of access, GED grads do not generally see themselves as college prospects. They are intimidated by the whole idea of the college setting which represents an alien world to them. College admissions processes are very intimidating, bureaucratic, harsh and unfriendly. They serve as the first funnel. People need to be very committed to the whole college idea before approaching such an environment. GED students and GED grads are often reluctant about the idea of college. The first barrier that faces them will lead to them giving up.

A transition program needs to consider the above an integrate strategies to address this. Moreover, it is better if the transition program is integrated into the GED instruction. Once students get their GED certificates they are gone. If students complete the whole admissions process before they earn their GEDs, there won't be a gap that can increase the chances of students not getting into college.

In terms of retention, studies show that the first college semester has they highest rate of drop outs. There are multiple reasons for this that have to do with becoming a skilled student that go beyond academics. Students that master these skills will succeed and those that don't will have an awful time. A transition program ought to include a retention component that supports the students for the first couple of semesters and offers activities that build the students' skills.

My colleague Amy-Ellen Duke and I have been looking at various transition strategies for students seeking to move from adult ed/ESL to postsecondary education and training, including integrated and dual enrollment models. We often hear that local programs bump up against state and federal policy barriers in their transition efforts. We would be very interested in hearing about specific policy issues that have arisen in your work, whether those arise from adult ed/ESL policies at the state or federal level, or from WIA Title I policies or from higher education policies.

Going back to Barbara's earlier question about how programs count students...students enrolled for college credit classes who may also be enrolled in ABE. Barbara mentioned that...

these students test below the NRS level 6 and therefore are eligible for ABE and she would like to know if other ABE programs do this and, more importantly, whether they count these students in their ABE reports as ABE students (only for the time that ABE serves the student and also complying with state assessment policies).

Julie, in the publication you recently co-authored ("Working Together: Aligning State Systems and Policies for Individual and Regional Prosperity") you mention dual enrollment and other "blended models." Would these be similar to what Barbara is doing and did you find that other programs shared her concern? How did they deal with this issue?

We do the same at Colorado Mountain College. Yes, we count them as ABE students for funding purposes.

I'm belatedly following up on Cynthia's question about the dual enrollment programs mentioned in the recent publication "Working Together." I'm really excited about this approach because dual enrollment shortens the timeframe for adults who want a postsecondary credential and it allows them to transition from adult education to postsecondary already invested in continuing on because they've already completed college coursework. The students do not have to have earned their GED before entering these dual enrollment programs. Some of these programs integrate remediation and job training and they tend to contextualize the adult education or ESL portion of the program. Others integrate adult education and college remediation (developmental ed) and tend not to be contextualized. Regardless of whether there is contextualization or not, the dual enrollment approach forces content alignment between adult education and the postsecondary programs the students want to enter as the exit criteria becomes the entry criteria for the next education step in the career pathway. Here are a couple examples:

Students in these classes are counted in the adult education National Reporting System and also generate FTE for the college. In some cases the students are charged tuition (WA state I-BEST) and in other cases not (KY adult ed-dev ed model). Both KY and WA use federal adult education funding for these programs.

Hope this is helpful and I'd be interested in hearing about other similar programs you're involved in, what you're learning about how best to carry out this approach, and what federal or state policy barriers you might have encountered as you do it.

I agree with Mr. Muro's findings. However, I would add to this that many of our GED to college students leave after the first semester of college due to the high cost of college.

The GED student may have come to me at first without the thought of college, just wanted a GED to improve employment, as mentioned. I can convince him to try college, convince him he can be successful at college, and support him through the first semester with study skills and other support, but unless I can give him financial assistance, I will probably lose him.

In the original study that we are discussing, were the 20% of high school students who went on to college "with a similar background" to the GED students also doing this on their own without any financial assistance from parents?

I am not surprised that after three years, the average completion is only 7 college credits. However, this is probably close to other students who come to college as adults who have worked and still need to work while they are studying. They work full-time, have a family, and go to college part-time. Most of them take a class or two each semester. They may quit during a peak work time, and come back at another time. This is similar to my GED to college students if they don't drop out after the first semester.

At our college, we have offered the GED graduate his first college class free of charge as an incentive. Still, we can get him to come to that first class, but not come back for more.

Actually tracking Eureka moments is a great graphing exercise and can lead to management by statistics. If your students' graphs are going up, then what you are doing instructionally is working; if not the instruction needs to be changed.

I agree that financing a college education is also one of the huge barriers to college for adult students. And although we could never claim that a college transition program can remove that barrier entirely (even when they can provide free credits, which is fantastic) providing information about financial planning and college financing - Pell grants, scholarships, etc. is a very valuable program component.

Mapping Your Financial Journey: Helping Adults Plan for College is a publication that NCTN developed with the National Endowment for Financial Literacy. For a sample view of the publication and ordering information (shipping and handling costs) see our website http://www.collegetransition.org/index.html

The academic aim of preparing students to score higher on college placement tests is also a financing strategy, because the fewer developmental ed courses a student has to take, the less money s/he is paying for college, and the more their financial aid money can be put to good use of credit-bearing courses.

Sandy Goodman
Director, New England College Transition Project
New England Literacy Resource Center
World Education

We have a similar arrangement with our local community college. We do count them for the time they are with us and we do use or state adult education approved assessments. This has helped so many lower level students be able to truly benefit from college that it should have been done years ago.

My personal belief is "I count 'em--you count 'em--we all count 'em so we can win the literacy attainment race!"

We also have a similar type of transition model. Students are enrolled as ABE students with our program (Osseo Adult and Family Learning) and with North Hennepin Community College. Students have ABE classes and supplemental instruction on the college campus. Their time with ABE is counted by ABE; students also have to complete all intake and post-testing requirements.

Paula Freiermuth
Instructor, GED Preparation and Post-Secondary Transition
Osseo Adult and Family Learning

I tend to agree with the others with regards to the reasons GED holders are not enrolling in college classes or finishing once they start. I just ran into an issue with two of students. I asked them what they wanted to do when they completed the program. They are both 1 test away. Their response was "No one ever asked me that before." I spent the rest of the time I had with them that day, discussing what they liked, what they disliked, what they were willing to do, and what they were not willing to do in terms of moving, commuting etc. for a job. Again, the response was that "no one ever asked me." For both of these women, they saw work as their only option and even saw assembly work as the only option. They'd never really given any thought to what other options there might be. The GED was simply a means to secure a job. Since then, those two students really have worked on identifying various avenues including pursuing financial aid resources because they are considering school beyond the GED now.

I think too often GED holders do not get enough information to help them beyond the ABE class. Then they place poorly when they enter - they end up battling the same issues of self-esteem and feeling unsuccessful that they end up giving up rather than pushing forward.

I've been working and pushing for a transitional program at my school for a year now and the biggest obstacle and the "competition" between departments - everyone wants to know whose responsibility it is to transition students. I loved the chant below because I think with more and more transitional programs in place we'd go a long way to breaking the cycle of illiteracy and helping all of our students find success.

Wow, Katrina's posting is a powerful reminder of how important simply asking the question is and how the right questions can begin to open up new awareness and possibilities. I am wondering if you have developed a standard set of questions that you use in goal setting/education and career planning with students or if your process is more informal? I am also wondering if anyone uses and would recommend any of the career assessment/inventory tools that are out there?

I'm not sure it's formal in terms of what I ask but I do have a general set of questions. One I always try to ask is "What do you want to do when you finish my class?" and then I follow up with "Why?"

Depending on the answer I get, I keep asking questions. I'm sitting here thinking that what I actually do is kind of like a "flow chart" process. If "yes" to this question, go here, if "no" then go here, kind of thing. For instance, if a student says "I don't know" I begin to ask questions about what they like or dislike. Why do they like it or dislike it because the "Why" of something is sometimes more important than anything else. Why may be related to something they do or do not know in terms of a skill they may be learning in class. Sometimes if the "Why" is addressed, the doors open rather than close for the student. I try to get my students to make "lists" of things. From that list we begin to formalize things. AT that point I also have my students complete the Career Choices profile in our Joblink center. They bring the results back to me and a copy for themselves and we talk about them. Students will come back with things like "financial analysts" but they hate math - they know they hate math and we discuss the feasibility or reality of pursuing that particular field and how just because the job field is on their list does not mean that they are "formatted" to follow it. The computer generated list is just a set of ideas - a place to start for lack of a better word.

I'll try to actually figure out what other questions I ask and write them up to send them to the list if you want.

Thanks for asking because it really is making thing through the process I actually use with my students.

For a long time if we were providing ABE services to our "college" students, we were able to count them as ABE students. We can no longer count dual-enrolled students for funding purposes; therefore, once our students enroll in college, they are no longer eligible for our services -- something that many of them could still use. NP =)

Though I'm currently not in an adult education program per se, a lot of our college students are under prepared; there's a huge skills gap that faculty initiatives are beginning to address; if anyone has any research related not just to "multi-level" but more like "differentiated"--in terms of metacognitive skills levels in "being a good student," being intrinsically motivated, as well as more measurable "conventional" skills. We're trying to add to a college success seminar for freshmen a lot of self-assessment in "soft skills" and align them with college success and career success. I would say that our students correspond to a large degree with"HS students with a similar background;" and are terribly naive, and I'm afraid for them around the financial end of things. In terms of access, they can get in, but are not necessarily given the degree of support they need. Perhaps our taking the initiative and linking with an adult ed program as well as high schools would be a possibility, but it would involve an entire philosophy of education as community outreach rather than a "for profit" bottom line, with improved quality of students, which, unfortunately, is where my institution is heading. I want to ensure that this process of integrating under prepared students with the college community be cone with as much integrity as possible: the"sell" for college these days, as it is for GED, is to go to a"get a job," or do better financially, not to "get an education," let alone "be educated," whatever that means : looking at the 'big picture," thinking outside the box, higher order thinking skills, self-awareness and reflection....

Bonnie Odiorne
Adjunct Professor and Writing Center Director
Post University, Waterbury, CT

There is a National data set called the NPSAS that has a great deal of data on post secondary education and also has GED as a variable. Here is some data from the NPSAS that partially explains why GED students are less likely to complete.

When it comes to postsecondary education then, adult literacy education graduates struggle. They are less likely to enroll than traditional high school graduates. They are less likely to complete, and in community colleges, they are more likely to be assigned to developmental skills The questions is: why?

A large part of the answer comes from the simple fact that they are adults and have all the responsibilities of adulthood that interfere with education. While the mean age for traditional high school graduates enrolled in postsecondary education is 26, the mean age for GED graduates is 32. GED graduates begin postsecondary education later than traditional graduates. While the mean age that traditional graduates begin postsecondary education is 21, the mean age for GED graduates is 27 (NPSAS 2004).

Thirty-two percent of GED graduates enrolled in postsecondary education are married compared with 20 percent for traditional high school graduates. Forty nine percent of GED graduates have dependent children; twenty-three percent of traditional high school graduates have dependant children; While on the average traditional high school graduates receive $857 in financial aide, the figure for GED graduates is only $165 (NPSAS, 2004). If you are married, have children and have to make ends meet, of course postsecondary education is a struggle.

Most GED prep programs are warm fuzzies. Learners get a lot of emotional support and are not sanctioned if they come late or are absent. Rarely is there mandatory homework. No one "fails." Post secondary is a hard contrast. In many NJ community colleges, if you have three un excused classes, you fail, and if you don't turn in your homework, it's a zero. Thus post secondary is often a total discontinuity for GED prep graduates and that is a huge part of the problem.

Agreed Hal, and that is the role that transitional programs should fulfill. They can serve as mediators between teachers and students in making teachers more sensitive and understanding of students' problems. They can also help students overcome problems that prevent them from attending classes, completing assignments, etc.

I have found that transitional programs work in both ways. First, they help students overcome barriers and adapt to college life. They also help teachers become more aware about non-traditional student barriers and develop strategies to serve them.

CCs, which are the places where many of our students go to, are serving more and more non-traditional students. They have an average first year drop out rate of over 50%. So, being all macho, and thinking that ABE approaches are warm and fuzzy is not helping them prepare those in need. So, if they are really concerned about serving the population they need to understand that the macho, "In my math class only 40% complete the semester" doesn't make teachers and CCs look good. Instead, they need to thin, "how do I increase my retention rate to 80%". Transition programs can help with this. Also, a lot of faculty development to teach "teachers" that they role is to make their best to teach, and that requires that they change their pedagogies.

An analogy can be made with the health care system. The original AMA health literacy video had the president of the AMA saying something like, "These people need to increase their skills to our level". Ten years later, the AMA has recognized that doctors need to stop saying "hypertension" and say "high blood pressure" to their patients. The medical system is still screwed up, but we must try to help it rather than say that we shouldn't send people to the doctor because they don't know what hypertension is.

This conversation is off to a rich and busy start! I've read Monday's postings and will try to answer some of the questions that have come up and turn to John Tyler for answers to those I can't handle on my own. My apologies for such a long posting.

The research on the GED and college entry done prior to Tyler and Loftus's recent paper showed that a greater percentage of GED holders than uncredentialed dropouts entered postsecondary education, but that high school completers entered postsecondary education at a greater rate than GED holders. Interesting points emerge from this research: community college may be equivalent to 4-year college in terms of economic benefits. This is important because GED holders tend to attend community college rather than 4-year colleges.

What counts as postsecondary education in these studies? Both degreed and non-degreed programs. GED holders tend to enter non-degreed programs at higher rates than do regular high school graduates.

Why is Tyler and Loftus' research important? They tried to add a piece to the puzzle by finding a two groups of high schoolers who were fairly demographically equivalent. The big difference between the two groups is that one group dropped out. That way they could study the question: Does obtaining a GED lead to postsecondary outcomes that are just as good as they would have been had the individual stayed in school and acquired a regular high school diploma?

The data they used included GED holders who were between the ages of 16 and 22. They compared them to two groups: one group who completed high school "on time"-regular high school completers; the other group who completed high school a year or two late. Most of the GED holders in their sample completed their GEDs just a year or two after leaving high school. In this sense, they may be quite different from your students.

They attempted to "make both of the high school graduate comparison groups as close to the GED holders as possible by controlling for observable factors likely to be correlated with both GED status and postsecondary education outcomes." In addition to Texas test scores, they controlled for being at risk of dropping out, participating in special education or gifted and talented programs, or being a participant in a Title I program. They also control for demographic characteristics of the sample members and factors such as age, gender and race/ethnicity, as well as the expected year of graduation. I don't know if they controlled for household income, which, as someone suggested, may be a major factor in whether someone enrolls in postsecondary school or not.

Your experience raises a lot of questions, Katrina. ABE teachers' professional wisdom as well as a number of ethnographies show that many ABE students did not grow up envisioning themselves in college, nor do they personally know many people who see college as a natural step in life.

What are folks in ABE programs doing to help learners imagine college as part of their futures? The transition programs are great, going full out to introduce and enroll folks. Does this work need to start earlier? Is it only economics that differentiates GED holders from their high school completing equivalents, or is it the posters on the high school walls, the meetings with counselors, the casual talk among students what makes the high school completers more likely to go to college? What do you think?

Hal Beder says most GED prep programs are warm and fuzzy, but all ESOL and ABE programs are. I'm all for "student goals," but really the only goals of any of our programs, be they beginning ESOL programs or GED prep programs, should be for the students to earn a high school credential and go on to post-secondary education. Anything less is sentencing them to a lifetime of poverty. These goals should be publicized, articulated, pontificated upon, repeated ad infinitum, shouted to the skies, hammered away at, counseled to within an inch of their lives, integrated into everything we say and do with our programs, used to inform all curricula and teaching decisions---much more so than K-12---because as Barbara has alluded to, most of our students do not come in with these in mind. "I want to improve my English." - Yes, but only as a step towards a credential and post-secondary education. "I want to become a US citizen." - Yes, but only as a step towards a credential and post-secondary education. "I want to get my GED." - Yes, but only as a step towards post-secondary education.

Let's have a parade for Tom M!!! Well , well said! I can't even count the programs if have visited ( NOT in MA!!) where both teachers and learners only answer "GED" when asked what learner goals are......!!! An awful lot of research has shown time and again that low expectations equal low outcomes, no matter what level of educational instruction is involved.

Hi, Jim Schneider, Asst Dean, Scott Community College Career Assistance Center - downtown adult learner center in Davenport Iowa. 2006 GED Results - 584 passed of 587 who completed the battery.

Since more high school completers with academic skills similar to those of GED holders enter college than do GED holders

It seems to me that the comparision and questions being asked as reversed of what would make sense. If our concern is getting GED recipients to pursue PSE, wouldn't we want to explore the differences between those GED recipients who pursue pse v those who do not? (This is the question I want to explore in my dissertation.) Perhaps those GED recipients who pursue pse do have a lot in common with hs grads who pursue pse. Perhaps those who do not pursue pse have more of the at-risk factors at play in their lives. Adult Literacy programming has never been funded to do much more than help people get their GED. Before we throw the baby out with the bathwater perhaps a little more research and programming emphasis might be in order?

A case could be made that more emphasis should be placed on re-enrolling high school leavers back into high school. Any thoughts on this?

I completely support the premise that to graduate with a high school diploma is preferable to earning a GED. However, the current high school system wasn't appealing to these individuals when it was age appropriate, there is little that can be done once they have decided to drop. In addition, the vast majority of the younger GED recipients that I work with have earned very little if any credits towards their high school diploma. I make a concerted effort to get those who could graduate back into school, but it isn't the answer for the majority.

Jim Schneider, Asst Dean
Scott Community College Career Assistance Center - downtown adult learner center in Davenport Iowa.

Thank you to Jim, not only for these great questions and challenges, but also for identifying his program AND STATE. Can those answering these comments with information about state procedures etc. please be so kind as to identify your state somewhere in your message? Thank you.

Our state and our college have key indicators now, and one of them is quantifying the number of ABE/GED students who move on and complete one year of college. There is a major push on our campus to provide information to this population in an effort to get them into college. Just two weeks ago we held our second annual Next Steps: Making Connections conference for all of our ABE, GED and upper level ESL students and developmental education and adult high school students. We had a panel of students who had made the transition tell their stories and the audience was completely spell-bound. We had our associate dean tell his story, too , as it was a similar one. We had pull out sessions on specific professional technical programs and an area where students could connect with many of our college services. There were about 500 students in attendance (day and evening session) and many of them had assignments they had to do as part of the process from their classes that guided them through how to make the most of going to a conference and getting their questions answered. We will be looking at our participants in the coming weeks to see how many of them did any of these things: made an advising appointment, registered for the next quarter, applied for financial aid, etc.

The best part is our state has opened the door through opportunity grants that students in financial need without a HS diploma or GED can apply for and receive financial aid for GED or HS completion and take a college program at the same time or directly after. It has allowed 72 students this year who would not have had aid, get it and stay in school. We will be monitoring this effort very closely.

Re: Karen Johnson's email [above] -- your statement that " our state has opened the door through opportunity grants that students in financial need without a HS diploma or GED can apply for and receive financial aid for GED or HS completion"

I am curious as to why financial aid might be needed to get the GED, other than the cost of taking the official test. Can the financial aid be used for living expenses? What does it pay for and what is the average amount?

This is a pilot program designed to offer students who would not otherwise be eligible for financial aid to have the same opportunity as others. It is funded by the state legislature. It does fund tuition, fees, childcare, books, materials, and living expenses. Each student's allocation is determined on need as with other need based grants. Many of these students are in I BEST (integrated basic skills) programs that combine ABE and GED or ESL with a professional technical program and have two teachers that work together with a cohort in the program, so a basic skills instructor and a prof. tech. instructor share the class. Regular college tuition is charged, so financial aid is necessary. Other students might be in adult high school completing credits for a high school diploma and paying a reduced tuition. They also receive living expenses, tuition, etc. based on need. It is an interesting project and puts funding in the hands of the neediest students who would not be eligible for a pell grant as they don't have a diploma or GED. It evens up the playing field.

I've been out of town so just now joining the discussion, which is terrific--thanks so much NCSALL for organizing it. Just wanted to follow up on previous exchange re WA state student aid pilot program. It is called Opportunity Grants and is aimed at expanding college access for low income adults. For those of you interested in more information on it, below is an article from the Dec 2006 newsletter of the WA community colleges system.

One other follow up to Karen's email--I just wanted to clarify that adults without a high school diploma or GED are eligible for Pell grants, provided they can pass a so-called "Ability to Benefit" test (the actual tests and cut-off scores on each are on a list put out by the US Dept of Ed and then colleges choose which of the tests they will use as their Ability to Benefit test. Most of these tests, with the exception of the TABE, are not on the list of tests approved by US Dept of ED for adult ed national reporting system purposes). Students attending college less than half time are also eligible (e.g. low income working adults) and now qualify for more aid than in the past due to an expansion for this group that we got included in last year's Deficit Reduction Act.

It seems that the "warm and fuzzy" part, which is present in ABE, but disappears in PSE, is the counseling services that should be available in high schools and colleges. These services include promoting the assumption that students are heading towards college, asking the questions like "What do you want to do after the GED?", and helping to match students with financial aid and other types of needed support.

Some time ago on this list we talked about counseling services in ABE, and it was agreed that, even in ABE, these services were under-supported. If a new GED-holder is not connected with a transitional program, how can they get these kinds of counseling services? How can we ensure that GED students have access to counseling services all the way through their preparation and transition to higher education?

Following up on another question from yesterday: the economic status of the students. Tyler and Loftus did control for income. The control they used was an indicator in the Texas schools data that an individual is from an "economically disadvantaged" family.

Yes, Andres, but when they get into post secondary they are not likely to find someone like you who goes the extra 1000 miles.

Wouldn't an additional question to consider be why they don't or can't go an extra mile? I know some that do. Why do they and how do they do that?

Even in ABE/GED there is more and more of a push to hold students accountable for not attending - which to me seems to fly in the face of working with Adults. The problem is that in some cases the population pool in some areas is getting younger than the some of the numbers I"ve seen floating on the list with regards to the "mean" or "median" age of GED students. As High school systems across the country face an increasing dropout rate the number of 16-18 or 18-20 year olds is rapidly edging out perhaps some of the older "traditional" GED students and as a result, the same issues from public school are beginning to filter into the ABE/GED rule.

I can't not be warm and fuzzy with my students. Sometimes I know I'm the only one in their life who is. I also remind them often that when they move into curriculum they won't find that warm fuzzy because the expectation is different. Sometimes that warm fuzzy is why a student sticks with the program vs quitting when they would rather leave.

If I use the phrase "warm and fuzzy" in a pejorative sense it is to refer to programs and philosophies that see counseling and support as ends in and of themselves. Post-secondary education is so vital to the future of our students that we can leave no doubt that it is the one unalterable goal of every program and every student. I use the phrase "momentum of the culture." My daughter has said that it never would have occurred to her that she was not going to go to college. Right, because that was the momentum of her culture---nothing about it ever had to be said. But for most of our students the momentum of their culture, for all the reasons we know so well, mitigates against their earning a GED diploma and entering post-secondary education. We have to reverse that momentum with every fibre of our being and with all the tools at our disposal.

Once that has been established, however, our relationships with the students have got to be warm and fuzzy---"I'm with you all the way." And this extends beyond just the personal interactions between teachers, counselors and staff and the students, which have to be totally ones of support and mutual respect, to policies, procedures, curriculum, teaching practices, etc. I have had many ultimately-successful GED students who went along fine in our classes for several months, then reached the limit of their endurance and had to stop out for awhile---our policy was, that's okay--- and when they came back, great, let's get back to work, I'm with you all the way.

And beyond the momentum of their culture, many of our students are so insecure about their intellectual ability to go to college that the curriculum and the teaching methods need to be warm and fuzzy too. I don't know how many times I have thought or said, "I know how smart you are but you don't know how smart you are." But as a wise man once said, "Self-confidence is borne of demonstrated ability." It doesn't do any good to tell someone she is smart if she doesn't believe it. She has to demonstrate success to herself. It is a hard task to create a GED curriculum that on the one hand carries the students towards passing the GED tests with no wasted motion and on the other hand allows for each student to demonstrate to herself that she has the ability, but that is the job before us. We were so proud at my old program in Chelsea MA when we designed a GED math curriculum that on the first day had all the students feeling like they were headed for MIT, "I really learned some math today!" when all they had done was perform arithmetic tasks with single-digit whole numbers, but with a few parentheses thrown in, a couple of exponents, maybe even an x and a y, they felt they had really done some math, and we knew it was math that would help them on the GED test.

Tom has a good point, and one of the things that good family literacy programs address, picturing your family members in college, having college as a goal; these aren't things many of our students have done.

A quick insert of a technical nature. I don't want to sidetrack this rich discussion Yesterday someone asked if Tyler's data included information on the level or courses GED holders were enrolling in. The answer is no, the data only indicated whether they were enrolled in 2- or 4-year colleges.

While folks are thinking about counseling services, I thought I might add my three cents about financial aid.

My first "cent": While the current federal financial aid system does not serve adults well, particularly if they are attending very part-time, students often don't even apply. According to a study titled, "Missed Opportunities: Students Who Do Not Apply for Financial Aid" (2004), 62% of half-time students and 87% of less-than-half-time students (who generally take only one course per term) did not apply for aid. "Less-than-half-time students can qualify for Pell Grants and some federal aid programs, but 57% of dependent low-income students and 64% of independent low-income students in this attendance category did not apply for aid." See
Missed Opportunities: Students Who Do Not Apply For Financial Aid

My second "cent": Completing the federal financial aid form is just the starting point for the institution's financial aid process. Students who don't fill out a FAFSA are not typically considered for a financial aid package because they are not even on the school's radar. So, institutions may have some innovative financial aid options but students don't hear about them if they don't apply.

My third "cent": All this said, offsetting tuition, fees, and books is often just a drop in the bucket. Low-income adults, in particular, are often working more than one job or need all the overtime they can get in order to make ends meet. Forgone wages and the hidden expenses of college (e.g., childcare, transportation, access to technology at home) knock them right out. There needs to be conscious effort at all levels: federal, state, local, and institutional, if we want truly want to support adults to go and complete a postsecondary education.

I think that financial aid would be for programs such as the CNA licensure. Students do not have to have a GED/Diploma to get a CAN, but it helps in finding employment afterward. This is a non-financial aid-eligible program for graduates or GED/HS students, but at my site there is funding for GED grads for this program.

Additionally, we have several students that are eligible for Displaced Homemakers funding - most often used for gas money/child care for our GED students. (our campus is 3-6 miles from the closest surrounding towns, and in a very, very rural community.)

With that comment made, I do have a question. Many of my students do not see the value of post-secondary ed degrees, and even those who do see that are not prepared for the change between our open-enrollment, no punishment for absence, work at your own pace, come when you can setup and the challenges of a "normal" classroom. I have convinced the instructors to keep the students in the classroom throughout the session, but I fear that is not enough. How do you convince students that post-secondary is important, and more importantly, what do you do to keep them enrolled after thay have left your program?

How do you convince students that post-secondary is important, and more importantly, what do you do to keep them enrolled after thay have left your program?

I'm envious of how some states/institutions support this, following are our current efforts despite limited resources:

Additonally some students are attending class and have issues related to unemployment compensation etc...or something like that - they are not often given the time they truly need to complete the PSE with assistance. They can't do work study without it negatively impacting their unemployment yet their unemployment isn't enough to cover their expenses. Add to that, they're being told they have to complete in X number of hours or all their money is cut off. When this happens the student tries to take on more of an academic work load than they can really handle and then they become overwhelmed, overworked and frustrated. This too leads to them not finishing the PSE and usually at a time when it was within close reach.

Last year's Learning Disabilities Association conference, and indeed EVERY year's conference, has a wonderful assortment of presentations on these types of transitional programs that have had great success. I suggest anyone interested in such a program check out the LDA site (ldaamerica.org) for more on these at recent conferences. Also, I believe there will be such a session at the upcoming COABE in Philly.

Thank you so much for the link to Dr. Cooper's website. I saw him 10+ years ago at an LD conference teaching tic-tac-toe math and it changed me as a teacher. I'm so happy to re-discover the website - LD or not, my students will benefit greatly.

Since COABE has come up I will take this opportunity to let you know about the great line-up of workshops NCTN has put togher for COABE. Below you'll find the schedule. We hope to see you there - Sandy

NCTN Transition Strand at COABE 2007
[All sessions will be held in Salon 10]

College For A Day: Your ABE/ESOL Learners Can Transition to College!
Presented by Janet Fischer, Northern Essex Community College
Monday, March 26
10:30 a.m. - 11:45 p.m.

Adult Education and One-Stops: Partners for Successful Transitioning (Panel Discussion)
Presented by Ellen McDevitt (FourthRiver Associates), Mary Lou Friedline (ABLE), Rachel Zilcosky (ABLE), Peg Rood (Luzerne County Community College), Kimberlee Meinen (Westmoreland/Fayette), and Brian Williams (Pittsburgh/Allegheny)
Monday, March 26
1:45 p.m. - 3:00 p.m.

Preparing Adults for College Level Math
Presented by Pam Meader, Portland Adult Education and Adult Numeracy Network
Tuesday, March 27
10:15 a.m. -11:30 a.m.

The GED Gap: Comparing the GED Exam and College Placement Tests
Presented by Sandy Goodman, New England College Transition Project at World Education, Inc.
Tuesday, March 27
1:45 p.m. - 3:00 p.m.

It Takes the Whole Team to Transition an ABE Student
Presented by Tom Kowalczyk and Jose Herrera, Rio Salado College
Tuesday, March 27
4:15 p.m. - 5:30 p.m.

Mapping the Financial Journey: Helping Adults Plan for College
Presented by Cynthia Zafft and Priyanka Sharma, National College Transition Network at World Education, Inc.
Wednesday, March 28
8:00 a.m. - 9:15 a.m.

Forging Partnerships with Community Leaders
Presented by Brenda Dann-Messier, Dorcas Place Adult & Family Literacy Center
Wednesday, March 28
9:30 a.m. - 10:45 a.m.

Don't Take No for an Answer
Presented by Cynthia Zafft and Andy Nash, National College Transition Network at World Education, Inc.
Wednesday, March 28
11:00 a.m. - 12:15 p.m.

Is there any way that people attending these workshops who are on this list would be willing to share their information with those of us who are unable to attend this kind of conference? That would be nice information to add to the WiKi or even if the presenters would share with us in some way, especially in regards to #1 and #2.

I"m trying to catch up on the conversation. I'm in the middle of administering final exams and so the last 2 days have been crazy.

If you take a look at our website you will see the NCTN Transition Strand from the last two years. Just choose the year and you'll get the agenda and handouts from all presenters:

Last year we even produced a short slide show. My one suggestion to everyone is to download the PowerPoints to your desktop and then open them. It takes a very long time to open them up directly from the site. We will be doing the same for this year for anyone who can't make it.

This might be a good time to put in a pitch for the National College Transition Network's free individual membership. Members receive quarterly eNewsletter about additions to the website that include things like the COABE strand materials and promising practices. To join, just go to our homepage and "click" on the leaf that says JOIN. It will bring you to a page that describes the benefits of the free membership and takes you to a sign-up survey. The survey is short and lets us know what members are interested in.

I'm not surprised that GED students do not indicate that their goal is to go on to post-secondary. I am the Education Director of the ACC Adult Collegiate in Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. Our students are adults that are returning to this adult high school to complete their high school diplomas. When they first enroll when asked what their goal is the majority reply..."to get my grade 12". In the course of their studies our students take a blend of high school and dual credit College courses. Once they have completed the first term, we ask them again what their goal is. At this point the majority now indicate that their goal is to go on to post-secondary education. When you ask why their goal has changed the response is often, "I didn't think I was College material, but now that I have completed College (dual credit) courses I know I can do it." I believe that when they first enroll they don't dare to set their sights on a goal that, at that point does not seem to be attainable. Once they know what skills they have and are capable of they can realistically set their goal higher.

Each year 30-40% of our graduates enroll in post-secondary programs immediately upon graduating. Some students need to wait a year or two because of a lack of finances or because the program has a wait list.

Sylvia Provenski
Education Director
Assiniboine Community College Adult Collegiate
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Your observations point to the need to continually revisit the goal setting piece of instruction. Students evolve as they grow and their needs change.

Charlene Brown, Coordinator, Adult Basic Education
Jefferson County Public Schools Adult Basic Education
Ahrens Resource Center
Louisville, KY

Thanks for sharing the process that occures at ACC Adult Collegiate. I'm curious as to what other influences they might be exposed to, in addition to the dual high school/college enrollment: orientations to college, for example, or posters on the wall, or former students stopping by to talk?

Also, could you provide us with some demographic information: what's the age range of your students?

On Tuesday, Bonnie commented on several issues related to college success and mentioned "soft skills." I was wondering how programs (both formal transition programs and informal ones) address soft skills.

Bonnie's entry reminded me of a very flexible, metacognitive technique discussed in several NCSALL persistence studies and used by some transition programs. It's called Force Field Analysis. In this activity, students brainstorm what it takes for them to continue to pursue their educational goals...and what might hinder them. Each student is then asked to pick any two forces (they can be from the positive or negative list) that they would like to work on. Since, I have not done justice in this description, I'll give you an FOB link where it is described: http://www.ncsall.net/?id=327 It's a really a great strategy. I know that Pam Meader, the author of one of the NCTN Promising Practices on Preparing Students for College Level Math, uses this technique. See
http://www.collegetransition.org/promising/practice4.html

Thanks, Cynthia for the plug. I just have found time to start reading the myriad of emails on college transitions and would like to offer some other barriers adults face transitioning to college. One big barrier is college readiness in math. This is true, not only for adult learners, but for high school graduates as well. In my state, Maine, a study was done by Lynne Miller of the University of Southern Maine on how many high school students were placed into developmental classes. The findings: over 700 graduating high school students were enrolled in developmental writing courses each fall but over 1500 students were enrolled in developmental math courses. Add adults to the list and the numbers are even higher. Compounded with that are the developmental courses cost $400+ , financial aid monies start getting used up before the student even begins to take college credited courses.

I also believe for math, the GED is not enough to bypass developmental classes. Research has shown if a student takes 2 or more developmental courses, they usually do not stay in college to complete their degree. In our transitional program at Portland Adult Education, Portland, Maine, we have students that may need to take 3 math classes to be at the level to test out of the Accuplacer and directly into a college level math course. The benefits of our program are lower costs for classes ($40-$50) vs ($400+) at the Community college, a slower paced class using hands on activities where understanding of mathematical concepts can develop, and also a chance for the adult to learn "how" to be a student (study skills, note taking, learning to be an advocate for themselves, etc.) and for math, more confidence.

We're finding that if our students get 500 or higher on their GED test, they generally place out of developmental math.

How does their practice test scores fit into this picture. For instance at my school we require that students have a 500 or better on the practice test in order to take the official test. We do make exceptions in some cases. However, they may do well on the practice tests but then not well on the official test, usually scoring between 480 and 450. It's about a 50/50 split. Some do worse - some do better - exceeding the 500 mark. I was just curious what the relationship was between the practice test you administer and their ending official score.

We have a similar policy in regard to requiring a 500 on the practice tests... And similar results in that they typically score +/- 50 from the practice test score.

After 13 years at this location I've found that there are 3 common reasons students who score less on the actual test.

I have also used the practice Math GED test as an indicator more for high school algebra readiness than for college readiness. However, even students scoring in the high 500's still do not, for the most part, have a high enough score to pass the elementary algebra section of the Accuplacer. For example, the GED tests solving systems of equations basically by finding the intersection point of two lines with the graph provided. On the Accuplacer, students are asked to solve systems the more algebraic way. Plus the Accuplacer has many questions dealing with exponent rules, factoring, etc that are more algebraic than I have seen on the GED practice tests. However, students scoring above 500 on the pretest usually pass the Arithmetic portion of the Accuplacer. I don't know what your community colleges require for cut scores on the Accuplacer but in Maine students must score around 60 in Arithmetic and around 70 in Elementary Algebra to be placed in college level math classes.

We have found the OPT to be a good indicator of a student's success on the official test. I'd agree about 40/60: those who do worse: to those who do better.

Thanks for reminding me of the force field analysis, and giving the references. In my freshman skills seminar this semester, i had them start with a S.W.O.T.. What's nice about that one is that the st,rengths and weaknesses come from the "inside," self-awareness, reflection, metacognition, the "soft" skills, if you will, and the opportunities and threats come from "outside," circumstances within or outside the person's control, but under threats students often mention negative characteristics or behaviors that could cause them not to succeed. Does anyone know of any research around this tool? We also do goal-setting exercises, and have them produce a "personal mission statement." And we always try to align behavior, intelligences and personality assessments with academic skills and career skills, and the Big 6 information strategies with real life as well (Sorry I've fogotten the reference for that). Since I'm new to this list, I'll also post a query I've sent to others: one of our faculty initiatives for action research is what they (I'm neither "really" faculty not "really" part-time staff---long and familiar story to many in our field) called the "polarized" classroom, the wde gap not just in skills but in attitude, motivation, behavior... and to whom does one teach? i think the question's posed badly but I want to support my contention with some research-based practices.

Many thanks,
Bonnie Odiorne, PhD Post University Waterbury, CT
Adjunct Professor; Writing Center Director

Thanks for sharing the data about Maine. The lack of preparedness for college level work is not new information, but it's always disturbing.

I'm still thinking hard about the "why"---why did young GED holders fail to enroll in post secondary at the same rates as did similar young high school completers?

What strikes me about the Maine data is that the students are high school graduates, not GED holders. Nonetheless they have academic preparedness issues. This echoes Tyler/Loftus's work, which shows that academic preparedness is not the factor that explains the difference in postsecondary enrollment between young high school completers and GED holders.

Soft skills are indeed a concern. You might want to look at a curriculum we developed in Florida called Florida Works. It has many easy to use activities that address soft skills using cooperative learning, problem posing and case study techniques. Although it is designed for adults who are preparing for work many of the same soft skills are needed for postsecondary education work. In addition, you might want to look at the profile of employability skills developed for the EFF National Work Readiness credential. This 1 page profile lists skills and tasks that front line employers have identified as key to being ready for work. The list was developed through a two year process. First we culled through entry level skills standards from various industries to find commonalities. We then conducted an online "importance rating" process with 500 or so front line employers in several states. Next, we did focus groups in several states with entry level workers, front line supervisors and some human resource staff. Interestingly we found that listening and working cooperatively were among the skills found to be most important. If you go to the EFF portal and then to the Assessment Resource Collection you will find references to research on standards such as Work Cooperatively, Solve Problems and Make Decisions, and Listen Actively. They may point you to some research on "soft" skills, although there certainly has not been enough of this. There is, to some extent, a disconnect between employers, who recognize soft skills as so important and educators who focus on basic skills without connecting these to the soft skills. There is some sense in the Department of Labor for example, that these skills are something that should be learned at home rather than in the classroom I think also that a lot of teachers who would like to address soft skills don't know how to organize activities. Florida Works activities are designed to be very easy for teachers to use, with students taking charge of much of the "teaching". We used quotes from Florida entry level workers and employers as the basis for many of the activities but similar kinds of problem posing "codes" could be developed using quotes related to problems adults face in developmental education classes so that the topics are "generative" for the learners using them.

Thanks for this information! Do you have the Florida Works curriculum available online? Also, do you have a link to find the profile of employability skills developed for the EFF National Work Readiness credential.

Yes. Florida Works is online at http://www.floridaworks.org/ . I just went to the website and found that they have added the crosswalk between the Florida Works curriculum and the National Work Readiness profile. Also, at the request of teachers we created a shorter version of Florida Works--about 30 instructional hours. This "mini-course" contains many of the activities teachers have liked and used the most. The NWR profile is in the Florida Works crosswalks document but you can also find it at http://www.workreadiness.com/

Soft skills are a major area of concern in Equipped for the Future's Workforce Readiness Credential. A curriculum has been developed by the Center for Literacy Studies at the University of Tenn. and some of that material may be relevant to the soft skills needed for successful transitions.

Are there links or downloads for that material (At Tenn and FL), or would one need to google it? I've often used EFF frameworks even though they "really" are for "literacy level education," or so my colleagues believe. I believe (reall EFF experts can correct me if I'm wrong) that it can be adapted to any level of education and integration of roles in adult life; it may be a little less relevant for traditional students direct from high school, but the skills wheel is wonderful, and so are the community member and worker role maps. Thanks.

A lot of the DOL SCANS skills do include "soft skills", and I really believe that not only do they relate to employability, but to higher-order thinking skills and metacognition, as well as the metacompetencies that SCANS lists. That's why I love EFF: it's a slightly different way of mapping them on the skills wheel, but highly relevant nevertheless.

A minimal passing score (450) clearly isn't enough to bypass developmental classes... I often wonder at want point the likelihood of needing development classes is minimized. We arbitrarily selected 550 as our recommended scores for students who want to go to college and avoid developmental education. We have yet to have a student actually delay their GED testing to improve their skills to this point. Commonsense would suggest that a 550 (~70pctl) would indicate stronger academic skills and increased likelihood of success, but still no guarantee thanks to the myriad of "life" issues that all too often get in their way.

Incidentally, be aware that these questions have been asked about GED repicients in pse since the the inception of the GED. If you have not read the 1956 Conclusions and Recommendations on a Study of the General Educational Development Testing Program by the Committee on the Evaluation of the Tyler Fact-finding Study of the American Council on Education, find it. I've been involved with GED in several capacities since 1986, and made what I thought was a good effort at keeping up with the literature in the field. I only came across this 1956 report in the last year and despite any methodological limitations of the studies in this report, I am amazed at how little the questions have changed since 1956.

One particular point from the 1956 report that seems especially appropriate to the point of higher scores. Eleven colleges provided data to evaluate "whether higher critical scores on the GED tests would have appreciably improved the success of the GED group. A grade record was found for 2,050 GED students of which 1,104, or 54 percent, had average grades below C. If an average GED test score of 55 had been required instead of the minimum of 45, 703 of the 1098 failures would have been eliminated, along with 249 of the successful students. In effect, a higher critical score on the GED tests would have eliminated 64% of all failures, while also eliminating 26% of all sucessful students. ... Further research is needed on the factors that cause differential achievement in college. ... The colleges must realize the necessity for securing as much data as possible about the individual student in any consideration of this learning ability. Emotional, health, and social factors should be weighted along with intellectual development. In this screening procedure, test results are inadequate." (p. 29-30).

This study was addressing admissions at the four year colleges of the day, yet is seems that the discussion remains relevant even among open-entry community colleges. In regard to the GED, NCLB, etc., etc., etc. we have too much reliance on "objective" standardized tests and too little quality advising that considers the individual and all that is occuring in their lives.

This information is great. I think it's amazing that the questions from 50 years ago are still being addressed today. One would wonder what it will take to bring effective change.

I tell my students all the time when they ask about the passing GED score - that 410 means they barely passed and 450 is average. I equate it with what they know in some cases - 410 would be like getting a 70 and 450 might be like getting an 80. I then point them in the direction of future jobs. Do you want a job that you barely get by with or a job that's just average. Would you want a doctor who barely passed on an average doctor. It usually gets them thinking and discussing back and forth. Even on rare occasions, I have had a student retake an exam they passed simply to improve their score but as you pointed out below - it is an exception to the rule.

I spend a lot of time "talking" to my students in addition to teaching. I think goal setting is important and I think looking at your goals is important because they change as we grown and learn. I think or students need to not focus so much on passing a "standard" tests but on truly learning the information. The problem often comes from outside though - they're being pushed to "pass the test" by various agencies or life needs. It's not just the student who needs education but the general population at large.

Recently a radio broadcast out of Chicago had a conversation about GED recipients and a caller called in to say that in a negative way how pointless a GED was because only people who were not "smart" got their GED. The announcer however came back and corrected him to say how much of a fallacy that was and pointed out that he himself had gotten his GED and gone on to college. The problem was the damage was done. The moment people hear GED and "not-smart" in the same vein they put the two together and we're all right back to fighting the same problem of self esteem issues and value issues and trying to educate people who you would think would see the value already and don't. The GED to PSE education question isn't easy to answer simply because there are so many factors that contribute to the problem.

Even in trying to implement a transition program at my school...I find not open doors but closed ones because people are so worried about who is going to administer it and who is going to get credit/funding for it etc.

Not only do the students face barriers in the GED to PSE education debate but instructors face barriers as well.

Through time, I've come to look at those soft skills as job skills: working with others, good manners, cleanliness, timeliness, sticking to a task, setting goals, completion of goals, thinking ahead, planning. You might have a conversation with local employers and see what skills they need in their employees; check out how many of those skills you can embed into your daily curriculum.

We have had local employers tell us what they want, and they say that they take the student having the knowledge base for granted; what they see most is that they don't have precisely the "soft skills" you mentiion, and the employers want that. They want someone who can fit into their team, work well with others, make decisions and solve problems, not to mention timeliness, time management, and appropriate affect/behaviors. It's often the lack of "soft skills" that faculty perceive as being "the gap," I think: the inability to behave as expected in a classroom setting, taking responsibility for one's own learning, and being able to reflect on the process. Not even to mention that they often haven't a clue what's expected of them and what they're learning. It's a locus of control issue, but also a "cultural momentum" issue, as mentioned. Our students often are not aware of not just the skills gap, but the soft skills gap, and they see no reason to change unless they're up against a situation where they HAVE to succeed; I think of our college students, but also of TANF clients I've had in employent training programs.

Thank you for sharing the 1956 study. It is disheartening to think that we're still working on the same issue, 50 years later!

Here's a question for folks working in transition programs: what do you look for in the students you select/recruit...? What's the balance in terms of the 1956 report: weighing emotional, health, and social factors along with intellectual development?

I'm still thinking hard about the "why"---why did young GED holders fail to enroll in post secondary at the same rates as did similar young high school completers?

I would contend that similar obviously isn't equal... Too often GED recipients are treated as a homogeneous group with little consideration of SES, ethnicity, parental education, GED scores etc. I'm all for doing all that can be done to keep youth in school until they graduate. However there will be those that the traditional route won't work... We need to do all we can do to improve our services and enhance the likelihood of those individual to pursue pse.

Also, the value of comparing GED recipients with high school completers is a puzzlement. 50+ years of research has consistently shown that GED recipients have some similarities, but are different from high school graduates. Some are successful in pse, some are not.

What hasn't been studied as thoroughly is what diffferentiates those GED recipients who pursue pse and those who do not pursue pse. This question is the foundation of what I want to explore in my dissertation. Are the at-risk factors that likely led to the drop-out status still at play? Is it SES? Would those who don't go be first generation college students?

Does anyone have any recommendations on research survey instruments that would tap these issues?

I also like how Andres adds the burden of preparedness to teachers and systems as well as students. This is one of many reasons that transitional programs seem like they would be so essential, because they can work with both sides. Cynthia, and Sandy--what do you think, and can you tell us about some successful strategies being done?

To follow up on Barb's question: if academic preparedness is not the reason, why GED holders enroll in PSE less than high school grads...

As much as Tyler and Loftus compared similar cohorts, might there be other underlying issues that set high school non-completers apart somehow? Two things that come to mind are extreme life issues, as Andres pointed out, and learning issues that make people think of themselves as not "college material" (even though they may score similarly on tests as others.)

I like the way Robin brings LD issues into all factors of adult learning. A child educator I know once said "everyone has special needs in their own way." I think this is true of adults, too.

I am hoping that some of the college transition program folks from the New England College Transition Project will jump in because they have a lot of rich experience to share. In the meantime, I'll give some general background into the program design features (not all of the programs share this, but most do):

Twenty-five community-based and college-based adult ed programs were funded to provide a stand-alone college prep class. A class cycle is about 12-15 weeks long, with a total of 8-10 hours of instruction per week in reading, writing, math and computer basics. They offer additional individual counseling and group workshops on career and education planning, college survival and study skills, navigating college and enrollment and aid processes - oftentimes facilitated by staff from local community college. Some programs provide additional tutoring and mentoring. In addition to these topics counseling is also geared to problem-solving around all the other issues impacting adult learners that have been discussed earlier.

At the core of the initiative's success has been the partnerships that the transition programs have developed with neighboring postsecondary institutions. Some have established quite deep institutional collaborations - some transition students are dual-enrolled in college and program and receive full access to college facilities, and may receive credit for some components of the college prep course. These supports have been extended to community as well as college based programs, and one community based program has been given office and classroom space on the campus to run the transition class.Those programs with less formal agreements are making inroads and host college staff at their sites to meet with students and give presentations on college enrollment and navigation, etc.

A separate initiative, The Urban Corridors project in Connecticut, also funded by the Nellie Mae Education Foundation, is piloting a new adult ed math curriculum that was developed out of a collaboration between adult ed and developmental ed instructors.

Good Morning from Cold California! Does anyone have a curriculum for ESL students in pre Cosmetology? One of my teachers has a student who plans to attend Community College in cosmetology in the future. This teacher custom builds lessons for her multi-level, open entry, open exit class; it would be incredible if she could find a curriculum and not have to re-invent the wheel. Thanks to all for a wonderful discussion group and great resources. This is as good as it gets!

Bonnita Solberg, Teacher on Special Assignment
Oakland Adult and Career Education

I'm new to the group and have been a quiet observer of the dialogue. I'm responding to Bonnita's request for ESL curriculum. We have classes for vocational ESL students, which are pre-vocational courses (VESL). Our VESL instructor has provided the information below. I hope this helps.

We offer VESL Cosmetology and we use the Phillip Roy (pre) cosmetology materials. We make language master cards to help with the vocabulary. Here is the ordering information:
Website: www.philliproy.com
e-mail: info@philliproy.com
phone: 800-255-9085

We use the vocational skills books, "A Basic Vocational Curriculum"

Cosmetology:
Hair shaping
Chemical Waving/Relaxing/coloring
Bacteriology and Chemistry
Dermatology and Trichology
State Board Review 1
State Board Review 2

We have our bookstore order the books, which are $6 each. Phillip Roy makes the lowest level vocational materials I have ever seen.

I'm attaching the checklists that we use with them.

I hope this helps. Please forward to Bonnita for me and tell her she can contact me if she wants.

Donna Price
VESL Coordinator

I wondered if folks on this listserv knew about the adult education to postsecondary education and training "bridge" program guide put out in 2005 by Women Employed. I've found it a useful resource with a number of examples of different types of bridge programs and ways to go about creating them Here's the description of it and links to the report (top link takes you to entire report, links below take you to specific sections).

This 125-page guide provides concrete guidance on how to develop and implement "bridge programs," which help adult students improve their basic skills and succeed in college. The guide contains information and interactive worksheets that program developers and managers can use to help with program design, curriculum development, funding, implementation, and evaluation. Download the entire guide above or smaller sections below.

Can you tell us more about "Beyond the GED: Making Conscious Choices about the GED and Your Future.", which you wrote with Sara Fass?

In the late 1990s, NCSALL research was beginning to document that while the GED was a valuable goal in an adult learner's life, from an economic benefits point of view, it needed to be a stepping stone to further education.

We wanted to bring this information to adult educators and to GED students in a way that would perhaps not just inform but motivate students to go on. The idea was that the teachers and students would learn together as they worked through the materials.

I was familiar with the research; Sara Fass, a wonderful instructor and materials developer, had a class of students with whom she could test new materials. We created "Beyond the GED: Making Conscious Choices about the GED and your future," testing and modifying the materials based on her experiences with her class.

A few years later, we asked Eileen Barry, another wonderful GED teacher and materials developer, to use and update the materials. By then, use of computers in ABE had become more widespread and Eileen brought the materials into the technological era.

Has anyone on the list used the materials in their classes recently? If so, please share with us your experiences.

Thanks for sharing this information Barbara. I too would be interested in seeing more about the material updates.

At our college, we recently created "Your Next Step: College - Go Beyond GED, Adult High School Diploma for Better Skills, Better Jobs" brochure. This tri-fold brochure highlights college programs, campus resources/ support services, successful GED student profiles, financial aid information, and identifies benefits to going beyond the GED. On the back we list "Your Next Steps" and contact information with our email address as nextsteps@edcc.edu.

This is only a first step in producing materials addressing this group of students, but it is a pretty good marketing tool. We will continue to make updates and also plan on creating a similar brochure for our ESL population.

We use this brochure when we go into ABE/GED classes to do a "Next Steps" presentation. Our transition person and a former GED student visit classes and discuss obstacles/solutions to going beyond the GED. What amazes me in these sessions is that when asked, "If there were no obstacles, how many of you would want to go on to college?" There is usually a 90% to 100% positive response. This tells me that we are all on the right track by bringing the message to our students that college is possible.

This discussion has been a wonderful opportunity to see the tremendous energy around helping GED students take those next steps.

Mary Pat Dennis-Andre
Director, Student Transition & Retention
Edmonds Community College
Lynnwood, WA

The National College Transition Network has the Collegetrans list that I hope you will consider joining. The CollegeTrans Listserv, is designed to provide a forum for discussion about practices, policies, and research that supports effective transition programs for learners moving from adult education to postsecondary education. These programs may be formal or informal and located in schools, colleges, prisons, workplaces or community-based organizations.

Cynthia Zafft, Director
National College Transition Network (NCTN)
World Education, Inc.

Thank you all for sharing your information, questions, and insights about the transition from GED to postsecondary education. It seems like a topic that we should continue to discuss, and I hope that you all will. Thanks especially to Barb, Cynthia and Sandy for being our guests this week!

Although the discussion formally ends today, I hope we can all continue to discuss questions and successes in this area and share resources. In the next 2 weeks I will get the discussion and a list of the resources posted on the NIFL website and also on the Transitions page of the ALE Wiki.

Sorry I'm a bit late to get in on the discussion but there was one point that I wanted to respond to that I hope will elicit more discussion. Katrina Hinson stated, "I think [our] students need to not focus so much on passing a "standard" tests but on truly learning the information. The problem often comes from outside though - they're being pushed to "pass the test" by various agencies or life needs." Yes, we would all hope they truly learn the information, because it's the knowledge that provides the foundation for post secondary education. But most of our students don't even have any interest in even reading unless there is some explicit reward - passing the GED test and getting their diploma. Unfortunately, utilizing knowledge in life isn't about passing pencil and paper tests.

I teach in a GED program in a prison for incarcerated adults. Many of the students seem to lack that natural curiosity and love for learning but seem doggedly committed to passing the GED test and getting their diploma. They have so little genuine interest in knowledge and spend no time learning outside of class but prefer spending their time watching drama and action-type serials on television.

Can anyone throw a little wisdom born of experience on this: What innovative instructional approaches might light that fire which will motivate, inspire, and engage our students to invest themselves in learning and encourage them to discover, for instance, the joy of reading.

Malcolm Knowles, in his early work on andragogy (study of adult learning), made the claim that adults are "self-directed" learners (a term introduced by Alan Tough in the early 1970's). Since then andragogy has received much criticism, particularly in the area of "readiness to learn." Can we assume that adults are self-directed learners? And even if they have their own purposes for learning, do they have the confidence to move in this direction? Given that our literacy learners probably represent learners with a range from little to great self-direction, and from little to great confidence, Gerald Grow developed a useful framework for thinking about the various roles we can take to match an appropriate teaching style to the readiness-to-learn of our students. You can access Grow's framework at http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow Implied in your question is the desire to 'move' our students towards embracing a self-directed love of learning, and I commend you for that. Hope this is helpful.

Geo, you hit upon an important distinction between schooling and learning. Passing the test, covering the curriculum, getting the piece of paper, those are the things of schooling. Pursuing a hobby, mastering a task, studying a chosen phenomenon, coming to an understanding of the nature of things, those are the things of learning.

A.S. Neill, the founder of Summerhill School in the UK found it necessary to wait out students' apparent disinterest, and allow students to do absolutely nothing until they were ready to take initiative for themselves. He referred to this as "curing children of the toxic effects of school."

The Cherokee have a saying, one learns what one is ready to learn. Maybe if your students are not learning the intrinsic value of learning for its own sake it is because they are not ready to learn that, and they are busy learning something else. Maybe you need to wait them out, like Neill.

Sorry for being so late jumping in here, but I have been following the dialogue with great interest. I work with the National External Diploma Program that offers a traditional high school diploma based on the adult's ability to demonstrate 65 high school level competencies in an applied performance assessment. The NEDP candidate knows from the beginning that they are required to take responsibility for their own learning, but can self pace through the program and, while given guidance as to what they must learn, must find resources outside of the program to learn the needed skills. Unlike a standardized, multiple choice test, the candidate is asked to apply what is learned in the presence of a trained assessor and cannot check off the competency as demonstrated until the skill is validated by the NEDP assessor. The NEDP process encourages the candidates to be resourceful and independent in their learning and thinking through problems. >From the time that the adult enters the NEDP, they are told they must demonstrate their high school level skills by applying what they learn through projects completed outside the assessment appointment. The need for persistence is explained from the very beginning. The pathway is there, but it will be up to the student, with our guidance, to develop the tools needed to move along the pathway and be successful in post secondary education and life in general. In other words, developing the ability and appreciation for learning/thinking becomes part of the NEDP process.

In RI, where I work, we have a strong Transitions to College Program and when a person comes in to inquire about "getting their GED" we council everyone that there are two options for completing high school, the GED and the NEDP. At the first appointment, we also explain the Transitions to College Program and tell everyone that, although they want to get a high school credential, if post secondary is their goal (and it is for many people today) then they may plan to enter our high school completion programs, but that this is just a step along the pathway to college, and so staying with us through Transitions is encouraged.

We are finding great success by linking NEDP to Transitions to College. While NEDP begins the process of learning to learn, builds the high school level skills, and offers the diploma, the Transitions to College Program refines these learning skills and takes the adult closer to being successful in post secondary. The critical element to this success is to council the entering student from the very beginning that they are responsible for their own success and that the programs can only support the effort that they put in, both inside and outside the time spent with the staff. Early discussion of the need for persistence and the reality of what it will take to move forward is also key. Stopping out can be considered a part of the program for some, but staying in touch is mandatory.

The pathway from ABE to College can be a long and arduous process for the adults in our program as well as the staff, but we are beginning to see very positive and encouraging results. Many students who never dreamed that college was possible for them are there and staying there. By not just focusing on the high school credential, but rather looking at a bigger picture, the staff and the students are encouraged that success is possible and we are beginning to prove it.

Ten years ago, even five, we could say that our student population needed a high school credential as an end in itself. Today, we all know that the vision must go beyond this credential. It is up to us in adult education to create a safe, comfortable environment fot the adult student to develop the learning and thinking tools needed for success.

This is a good question that I"m sure many adult educators have struggled with. There seems to be two schools of thought on this, at the very least. One is that hopefully by helping the student with his personally established goals (getting the GED) we form a conduit, an opening, for them to realize they are capable of learning much, much more. I've seen this happen--students come in with very limited horizons and as they discover the power of their own learning capabilities, their horizons grow wider. It's a confidence thing. One interesting thing I've noticed is as they discover how much they can learn, they always want to attribute it to you--their teacher. You've somehow opened the door, taught them in a way they've never experienced, etc etc. As a young teacher I was quite gratified by this deluge of praise, and didn't question it much. However, as i noticed it more and more, I began realizing that this was another way my students sabatoged themselves----by attributing any success THEY had to someone else's effort. I began talking to them about the fact that THEY were responsible for their learning, and for whatever reason, at that time, THEY had decided they could learn.And that it was not dependent on teachers, or classes, or books--but on them.

The other view is that we (adult educators) do our students a great disservice by teaching them a very, very different curriculum than those who are in the power class, for lack of a better word. That we make the choice for our students that they would not be interested in, nor have time for, really great writers, thinkers, and intellectuals. And in no small measure we are pressured by agencies and funding to do exactly that--teach "workplace skills", "life skills", --when was the last time you were asked to document how you helped students THINK? I've thought about this, and as a result, I've decided I'm doing my students a disservice if we don't have philosophical discussions, if we don't talk about good writing, big problems, and world views. And not surprisingly, for the most part, as long as you can tie it to that which they know, they engage in deep and thoughtful discussions that, I think, lead them to developing that intellectual curiousity we all hope to awaken. However I will admit that it doesn't show up as a documented level gain on a standardized test--but frankly, some things are more important.

I guess I'd ask the students why they are there because, unless someone has tied them up and dragged them into your classroom, they are there by choice. What made them make that choice? What do they hope to accomplish?

Transition from GED to Postsecondary Education, February 26 - March 2, 2007

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