Return-Path: <nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id i4QFVtm05357; Wed, 26 May 2004 11:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9B35BF1886881547B5DFF88364AF31A30118E257@wdcrobe2m03.ed.gov> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Crawford, June" <jcrawford@nifl.gov> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ASSESSMENT:577] RE: Accountability in Adult Education (Long but not technical) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Status: O Content-Length: 8003 Lines: 206 Eileen, Do you have a date for this? I'd like to use it but would want to give the full reference. Thanks. June Crawford -----Original Message----- From: nifl-assessment@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-assessment@nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Eileen Eckert Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:57 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [NIFL-ASSESSMENT:576] Accountability in Adult Education (Long but not technical) This was recently posted in a Chronicle of Higher Education colloquy; it seems to me to address what Andrea wants: Accountability measures: My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great. "Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said. "No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?" "It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent, Good, Average, Below Average, and Unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better," I said. "Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice." "That's terrible," he said. "What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?" "Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry." "Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me." "Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele; so much depends on things we can't control? For example," he said, "I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem and I don't get to do much preventive work. "Also," he said, "many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off," he added, "so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?" "It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. I couldn't believe my dentist would be so defensive. He does a great job. "I am not!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most." "Don't' get touchy," I said. "Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average, or worse. My more educated patients who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating actually is a measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?" "I think you are overreacting," I said. "Complaining, excuse making and stonewalling won't improve dental health'...I am quoting from a leading member of the DOC," I noted. "What's the DOC?" he asked. "It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly laypersons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved." "Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully. The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?" "Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes." "That's too complicated and time consuming," I said. "Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure." "That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly. "Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some." "How?" he said. "If you're rated poorly, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly. "You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? Big help." "There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all." "You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score on a test of children's progress without regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools." I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. "I'm going to write my representatives and senator," he said. "I'll use the school analogy- surely they will see the point." He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately. From: "Marie Cora" <marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com> Reply-To: nifl-assessment@nifl.gov To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ASSESSMENT:575] Forward from: [AAACE-NLA] Delusion of Accountability in Adult Education Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Hello all, As promised, I'm forwarding a reply of interest to you regarding this recent discussion. marie cora NIFL Assessment List Moderator -----Original Message----- From: aaace-nla-bounces@lists.literacytent.org [mailto:aaace-nla-bounces@lists.literacytent.org] On Behalf Of AWilder106@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:29 AM To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE Subject: [AAACE-NLA] Delusion of Accountability in Adult Education (longer) Colleagues, A couple of points--in my opinion-- 1) The same valid and reliable measures should be given as part of the AELS--across all states. These measures should be designed to catch measurable learning gains in literacy. Do different types of programs require different types of assessments? Then comparable programs should have comparable assessments--but something measurable, showing gains. 2) Students with diagnosed learning disabilities should be given accommodations. The report that Tom cites sounds obnoxious: condescending and faulty in reasoning. I buy the taxpayer argument. I am a taxpayer, too, and I want to know that my money is actually helping students make adult literacy gains. The crux of the problem is how literacy gains are to be measured. Do higher levels translate into jobs? More income? Better housing? Health care? Or is advancement through levels the gain that will insure the other outcomes? What should I subsidize? What should I push for? (I have also observed teachers "coach" students into filling in test sheets.) About self-esteem--I see that as an outcome of measurable skill growth. In general I toss that out as a measure, as something that can be measured directly. I think that VALUE plus educators should give a wack at solving the problems, maybe on this list serv. As a taxpayer I want to know that my money makes a measurable difference in increasing adult literacy. What would this take in program design and redesign? Who wants to go first? Andrea
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Dec 23 2004 - 09:46:17 EST