Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost.nifl.gov [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA19105; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <19970902182735.AAA19347@carlosdi> Errors-To: lmann@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "CARLOS DIMEO" <dimeo@telcel.net.ve> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:1355] RV: RV: Desde la otra BABEL para el mundo entero X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 Status: RO Content-Length: 12356 Lines: 222 ---------- De: CARLOS DIMEO <dimeo@telcel.net.ve> A: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Asunto: [NIFL-ESL:1354] RV: Desde la otra BABEL para el mundo entero Fecha: martes 2 de septiembre de 1997 13:33 This message is write en English and Spanish. Carlos Dimeo desde la otra BABEL para el mundo entero. Good dear friends. This is a hard task. I believe that the moderator is right in certain part, because of an or another form should work with the lists. For my it is a surprise that can not filter the lists. But we already see the filters they exist. The limits also exist. I am not against English, it is something that I get tired of repeating it neither I want to enter in the spirit of the list, in the arduous work that you/they have had during two years. But as the same moderator she/he has said, the list has grown, the list has changed and now she/he has other users. This is adjacent with the right of property, but the property is the property, only until there. As Facundo Cabral she/he says it: " The conqueror to take care of his conquest becomes slave that is to say of what conquered, that hoaxing was hoaxed." And in this sense the pertencia, is not the moderancia. I have found that the American North is very resistant to Spanish, and I find well that they defend its language, but I defend mine and I believe in that of the other ones. And this is only an enough condition, to maintain my language. Mrs. Fran Keenan, is not my spirit to fight against you for my it is a honor to participate in this list. But she/he wants to know you that I don't speak English, regrettably and I can not say what I really sit down more than in another language. Then English is not the only reference language, please don't close you I live in a country of the Third World, but that is only a Label, because I for anything sit down third mundista, to what refers me, it is that the things make them one and you can not fight with this. A native for example has a technology and in there is it a sophistication, there is a genius, a thought, a form and you/he/she is not different no more, no less that this. This is a form and the one of she/he stops the hunt, the fishing, the gathering it is another. The same thing happens with the language, each lengueje has a form, a condition, and it is peculiar of each who. I think of Spanish for well or for bad of other, and you. in English for bad or it stops well of other and 99% of the list also sure she/he makes it in English or in French, or in another of the 600 to but languages that there is in the world that he finds. Then the fight is not against you. It is against the mediatización of the means, the coercion to the silence, because if I have to express myself with words that are not mine regrettably this is to be condemned to the silence, let us outline this as we want to outline it. You tell us that most speaks English. If it is true because 80% of Internet is in United States that he finds, but imagine you that it was in in the Republic of Bosnia, or in Cyprus, or in Madagascar, then that it had happened, there was the world had internet, the list it would exist. You can not prevail this way. It is not anything personal. But the information now is more filtered than never. And those that don't have voice, can not make neither to say anything. I want my America that not the America an only country, I want my America everything from the most remote point in the Canada until the deepest end in the patagonia. In this extension 80% speaks Spanish " thank you " to the conquest that he finds, I would like to speak my language exactly and that of the comanche, that of the cherokee, etc. and this is not chauvinismo. Apologize you. those of the " list " if me the only Venezuelan that is in her the I importune. She/he didn't want to leave her, but if you. They believe that I should please make it tells it to me, but one is not able to perdir that one abandons completely everything. >From this bastion and in the fight against BABEL, the revolutions in the almost XXI century they are different, I won't take the house of the ambassadors like they made it those of the MRTA, they remember it in Peru, but the moderator, that is to say FUJIMORI, killed them to mansalva, because they didn't want to speak the same language, good that the elementary principle of any war. I don't want to war, I want to speak, to alphabetize, to educate, to write. I want that we can resist BABEL, I want us to exchange that it is the village globar of McLuhan, but that it is truly the global village that this doesn't become 1984 of ORWEL they remember it, they remember when Richard Burton interpreted this character. Srs. from this bastion I will continue not combatting for my language but for the plurilingüilidad, for the multiple language, not for Esperanto. Although some seem them late, chauvisnista or of the third world I won't change position at least for the time being. For the whole world Carlos Dimeo dimeo@telcel.net.ve telf +58-43-339441 fax +58-43-339441 Bueno estimados amigos. Esto es una tarea dura. Yo creo que el moderador tiene razon en cierta parte, porque de una u otra forma debe trabajar con las listas. Para mi es una sorpresa que no pueda filtrar las listas. Pero ya vemos los filtros existen. Los limites tambien existen. Yo no estoy en contra del ingles, es algo que me canso de repetirlo ni quiero irrumpir en el animo de la lista, en el arduo trabajo que han tenido durante dos años. Pero como el mismo moderador ha dicho, la lista ha crecido, la lista ha cambiado y ahora tiene otros usuarios. Esto colinda con el derecho de propiedad, pero la propiedad es la propiedad, solo hasta alli. Como lo dice Facundo Cabral: " El conquistador por cuidar su conquista se transforma en esclavo de lo que conquisto, es decir que embromando se embromo ". Y en este sentido la pertencia, no es la moderancia. He encontrado que el Norte Americano es muy resistente al Español, y me parece bien que defiendan su idioma, pero yo defiendo el mio y creo en lo de los otros. Y esto es solo una condicion suficiente, para mantener mi lenguaje. Sr. Fran Keenan, no es mi animo luchar contra Ud. para mi es un honor participar en esta lista. Pero quiere saber Ud. que yo no hablo ingles, lamentablemente y no puedo decir lo que de verdad siento mas que en otro idioma. Entonces el Ingles no es la unica lengua de referencia, por favor no se cierre Ud. Yo vivo en un pais del Tercer Mundo, pero eso es solo una Etiqueta, porque yo para nada me siento tercer mundista, a lo que me refiero, es que las cosas las hace uno y no se puede luchar con esto. Un indigena por ejemplo tiene una tecnologia y en ello hay una sofisticacion, hay un ingenio, un pensamiento, una forma y no es distinta ni mas ni menos que esta. Esta es una forma y la de ellos para la caza, la pesca, la recoleccion es otra. Lo mismo ocurre con el lenguaje, cada lenguaje tiene una forma, una condicion, y es particular de cada quien. Yo pienso en Español para bien o para mal de otros, y ud. en ingles para mal o para bien de otros y el 99% de la lista tambien seguro lo hace en ingles o en frances, o en otro de los 600 o mas lenguas que hay en el mundo que le parece. Entonces la lucha no es contra ud. Es contra la mediatizacion de los medios, la coaccion al silencio, porque si yo tengo que expresarme con palabras que no son mias lamentablemente esto es condenarse al silencio, planteemos esto como lo queramos plantear. Ud nos dice que la mayoria habla ingles. Si es verdad porque el 80% de Internet esta en Estados Unidos, que le parece, pero imaginese Ud. que estuviera en en la Republica de Bosnia, o en Chipre, o en Madagascar, entonces que hubiera pasado, hubiera el mundo tenido internet, la lista existiria. No se puede predominar de esta manera. No es nada personal. Pero la informacion ahora esta más filtrada que nunca. Y aquellos que no tienen voz, no pueden hacer ni decir nada. Yo quiero mi America, que no la America un solo pais, yo quiero mi America toda desde el punto mas remoto del Canada hasta el extremo mas profundo de la patagonia. En esta extension el 80% hablamos Español " gracias " a la conquista que le parece, me gustaria hablar exactamente mi idioma y el de los comanche, el de los cherokee, etc. y esto no es chauvinismo. Disculpenme uds. los de la " lista " si yo el unico venezolano que en ella esta los importuno. No quisiera salir de ella, pero si uds. Creen que debo hacerlo por favor diganmelo, pero no se puede perdir que uno abandone por completo todo. Desde este bastion y en la lucha contra BABEL, las revoluciones en el casi siglo XXI son distintas, yo no tomare las casa de los embajadores como lo hicieron los del MRTA, lo recuerdan en Peru, pero el moderador, es decir FUJIMORI, los mato a mansalva, porque no querian hablar el mismo idioma, bueno ese el principio elemental de cualquier guerra. Yo no quiero guerrear, yo quiero hablar, alfabetizar, educar, escribir. Yo quiero que podamos resistir a BABEL, yo quiero que intercambiemos, que sea la aldea globar de McLuhan, pero que verdaderamente sea la aldea global, que esto no se convierta en 1984 de ORWEL lo recuerdan, recuerdan cuando Richard Burton interpreto este personaje. Srs. desde este bastion seguire combatiendo no por mi idioma sino por la plurilinguilidad, por el multiple idioma, no por el esperanto. Aunque algunos les parezca atrasado, chauvisnista o del tercer mundo yo no cambiare de posicion al menos por ahora. Para el mundo entero Carlos Dimeo dimeo@telcel.net.ve telf +58-43-339441 fax +58-43-339441 ---------- > De: Fran Keenan <fran@cal.org> > A: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > Asunto: [NIFL-ESL:1353] Moderator's note > Fecha: martes 2 de septiembre de 1997 12:27 > > What I realize from all of the heated back and forth on the issue of > Spanish (or other language) use on this list is that the list itself > has grown and changed considerably over the past two and a half > years. We now have almost 400 subscribers (double what we had one > year ago), who do not, for the most part, know each other. The list > has "a life of its own" which is really a good thing for the most > part. It is much more lively. However, as it grows, it changes its > nature. It is personal but impersonal, cozy but anonymous. What is it > like? a classroom? a collective? a town meeting? a publication? a > telemarketing call? a living room? Why are we all subscribed? Do we > expect the same things, surely not. > > The job of moderator has changed from being sort of a list > cheerleader (please somebody, post something) to the harder one of > trying to keep a focus in the midst of an increasing volume of > postings. An e-mail list is not by nature a very orderly thing, which > is part of the charm and part of the difficulty of "moderating" one. > Nonetheless, it is my role to suggest ways in which this list can > function more smoothly. My suggestions last week were that: > > 1. personal messages not get posted to the list (***the main > point!***) > > and that... > > 2. postings be made in English so that the greatest number of > subscribers (indeed, if not all subscribers) can understand them. > > Obviously there are benefits and joys and inherent rights to > communication in all languages. My thinking was that it was to the > benefit of this forum that we limit ourselves to communication in > English. (Yes, limit ourselves). It is a convention, not a mindset. > > Point of clarification: This was not a government pronouncement (I > don't work for any government). It's my personal suggestion as > moderator of this list. > > On a truly moderated list, where all messages funnel through the > moderator's e-mail box before being posted, a moderator has the > ability (some would say duty) to filter out irrelevant, rude, or > obscene mail. I do not have that ability and this list will continue > to be self governed for netiquette violations. > > Thanks for the notes of support but let's get the focus off whether I > was personally maligned and back onto the business of the list > > --sharing information about language and literacy education for > adults in the United States. > > > > Fran Keenan > NIFL-ESL moderator > > > > ----------
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