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From: Sherry Migdail <shermigd@erols.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov>
Subject: [NIFL-ESL:5491] Re: "illiterate" immigrants
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My messages seem not to get through but I am willing to keep trying - one learns
to be persistent in learning and in teaching.
There is no doubt that the question of giving adults adult materials which
are relevant to them is more effective for them than giving them workbooks
intended for children ... I don't know Kurdish but if I were learning it I would
want something that is on a level for an adult with which to learn to read - I
know what reading is - I just don't know kurdish. I may even not be a
proficient reader of my own language but I do know about reading 0 and certainly
about speaking,
That's old research - really just as obvious as it can be.
What is reasonably new is that the questions regarding phonemic awareness for
adults has risen as very important. How words are said - pronounced is
important. The rhythm of language, that which is prosody is also very
important. You learn a language by becoming awake of what that language is like
-- then - you may for intellectual reasons make some comparisons between that
new language and the one you do know.
Teachers need to help adult students appreciate sounds (I really don't care if
you say Baby or infant) and "movement" of a language. It takes time -- but it
helps the mind put the language you are learning in proper perspective.
Sherry Migdail
Kathleen Munive wrote:
> Dear Miriam,
> Thanks for your comments, I think I mentioned that I am not a schooled
> linguist. I do need to focus on how I hear the phonetic sounds of English
> as opposed to second language learners. But I would like to clear up a few
> things. I did not mention the word illiterate in my message. I agree that
> no one is truly illiterate. It is ludicris to suggest that because someone
> cannot read or write they have a low intelligence level and are incapable of
> communicating. I merely hit the reply button, which as you can see from
> your own message, automatically fills in the subject of the original
> message.
>
> But I would like you to think about something else I wrote: "Adults will
> become insulted and frustrated if you try to give them materials made for
> children. Their intelligence must be acknowledged while servicing the
> deficet." - I understand your point about the word "baby", but aren't you
> also making the assumption that these adults are incapable of understanding
> the word infant? I would bet that if a doctor, nurse or refugee worker was
> at all involved with the birth (or pregnancy) of any child remotely close to
> these adults, the word infant was used. These adults know the difference
> between slang and proper usage of the language they speak, even though they
> cannot write or read in their own language. Perhaps baby was a poor
> example. I am sure you would agree that you would not want to use the word
> "gonna" for "going to". Likewise, if we are not cognizant of what words we
> are using, it is quite likely that we will use idioms or expressions that
> adult students from other countries will not understand.
>
> I agree whole heartedly that you should not dictate and monitor every word
> you would use in a lesson. But, each lesson should have planned objectives
> directly related to the what is being used and taught. I was trying to give
> specific metaphors, perhaps I made it too specific.
>
> Kathleen Munive
> ESL teacher
> Fairfax County Public Schools
> McLean, Virginia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Miriam Burt" <miriam@cal.org>
> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 7:45 AM
> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:5470] Re: "illiterate" immigrants
>
> > Kathleen Munive writes: [NIFL-ESL:5467] Re: "illiterate immigrants"
> >
> > "Plan the lesson with as simplistic information as possible using words
> > that follow basic phonetic and grammar rules. To give you a specific
> > example,let me use English as the language I would be teaching. If it
> > were a child care lesson I would use the word "infant" or "child" as
> > opposed to the word "baby". Why? Because phonetically, infant or child
> > have no irregularities. The word baby, with its use of the letter "y"
> > may ultimately teach the students that the sound for "y" is read and
> > said as an "e". This would make for more confusion when they try to read
> > the word "fly". "
> >
> > I have to disagree with this statement on two counts. First, there is
> > really no irregularity here. In one syllable words in English that end
> > in "y", the "y" is pronounced /ai/ (like the word "eye") In
> > multi-syllable words the "y" is pronounced /i/ (like the sound
> > "eeeeee").
> >
> > Secondly, however, and more importantly, choosing words that sound more
> > "educated" than the more common ones are not always necessarily doing
> > students a service. The common word is "baby." This is the word we say
> > and write. This is the word students need to know and use. And, as one
> > of my colleagues at NCLE said, "Have you ever known a student who
> > couldn't learn to say and read the word "baby"? We should be careful, I
> > think not to do students a disservice by overly controlling the language
> > they they will be exposed to and use in class.
> >
> > One final thought, the word "illiterate" is unfortunate. It promotes a
> > deficit model for looking at adults who are learning English. Beginning
> > level learners is my preference.
> >
> > Miriam
> > *************
> > Miriam Burt
> > Associate Director, National Center for ESL Literacy Education (NCLE)
> > Center for Applied Linguistics
> > 4646 40th Street NW
> > Washington, DC 20015
> > (202) 362-0700 (phone)
> > (202) 363-7204 (fax)
> > miriam@cal.org
> > *****************************************
> > Visit NCLE's Web site at www.cal.org/ncle
> > *****************************************
> > We're the only national center devoted exclusively to providing
> > technical assistance to those working with adults learning English as a
> > second language.
> >
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