Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h86Ccs719736; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <Law9-F884AsK6ExU8ra0003fe0d@hotmail.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Susan Ryan" <susanefl@hotmail.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9441] RE: Illiteracy X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Status: O Content-Length: 14748 Lines: 395 Varshna, I think our difference lies in the definition of "toddler". I consider a toddler 1 and 2 year olds. The time span they"toddle" or are learning to walk--not read. Of course, there are many precocious children who can read before school. But 1-2 year olds?? Your points are well taken. I agree with you in part. Susan >From: Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson <varshna@grandecom.net> >Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> >Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9438] RE: Illiteracy >Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:06:52 -0400 (EDT) > >Susan, > >I beg to differ on a couple of points in your response. > >A) I did not suggest you feel that language be silenced. I would not have >posted it to the list if that were the case. > >B) Supporting bilingualism is a fantastic position to take. Institutions, >however, lack the depth of your feeling for this topic, so I doubt that >decision-makers will put muscle into any formal "bilingual" policy. There >is sufficient evidence to show the exact opposite occurs. Recall how >easily >California changed course. > >C) Not to brag, but my 3-year-old knows the letters of the alphabet by >name >and is starting to form the letter-sound associations necessary to start >reading. If I made a concerted effort to work with him over the next year, >he will be reading. I'm sure there are plenty of pre-school aged children >who are literate before they reach school. Ever known a child who was >reading before kindergarten? I do. In my children's elementary school, >they >don't even teaching reading in kindergarten -- even if a child is ready! > >Reading teachers did not invent the learning process; they just make use of >our innate ability to learn. So, no, I don't agree with you on this point. >Toddlers are literate. They know that there is a relationship between >printed language, oral language, and ideas. They know the golden arches >mean McDonalds. They know many things, and we don't have to "teach" them >any >of these things. Why else has Sesame Street been teaching the alphabet and >phonics for the last 30-odd years? > >Culture and language are so intimately related that it is hard to have a >discussion about "first," "second," "native," or "non-native" without >examining the labels themselves. > > >on 9/5/03 5:47 PM, Susan Ryan at susanefl@hotmail.com wrote: > > > I didn't suggest the "language be silenced". I strongly support > > bilingualism. And I don't think most "toddlers" are literate" in any > > language. > > Susan > > > > > >> From: Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson <varshna@grandecom.net> > >> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9425] RE: Illiteracy > >> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:20:55 -0400 (EDT) > >> > >> Your point assumes that either the child or the family wants English to >be > >> the "first" language. What is so great about having developed oracy in > >> your > >> "second"/"family" language when it isn't backed up by literacy? > >> > >> Who wants to be an adult whose understanding of her "second"/"family" > >> language stopped at age 3? How do you converse with your parents, with > >> your > >> grandparents (as has been my experience), with aunts, uncles, and other > >> relatives who are more comfortable speaking in the "family" language? >What > >> do you do as an adult with children of your own when you can't pass on >the > >> "family" language? How do they converse with the older generations? > >> > >> How is culture preserved when the language in which it was born is > >> silenced? > >> > >> > >> > >> on 9/5/03 12:51 PM, Susan Ryan at susanefl@hotmail.com wrote: > >> > >>> The whole point is for a toddler age, English would be his first > >> language! > >>> Although we have many languages spoken in the U.S., English is the > >> defining > >>> language and children born into it should be first language speakers >in > >>> English. The other lanuage (family language spoken) would be their > >> second > >>> language. They will be bilingual in reverse of their parents' > >> generation. > >>> Susan > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: "kate.diggins" <kate.diggins@slc.k12.ut.us> > >>>> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >>>> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9421] RE: Illiteracy > >>>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:02:04 -0400 (EDT) > >>>> > >>>> On the other hand, childen need a rich first language. Without that, > >> there > >>>> would be a lack of cognitive "hooks", metaphorically speaking, on >which > >>>> to "hang" second language. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ---------- Original Message ----------- > >>>> From: Gustav Kocsis <gkocsis@sfccnm.edu> > >>>> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >>>> Sent: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:19:51 -0400 (EDT) > >>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9418] RE: Illiteracy > >>>> > >>>>> I so much agree. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Susan Ryan [mailto:susanefl@hotmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:02 AM > >>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list > >>>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9417] RE: Illiteracy > >>>>> > >>>>> Sylvan, I found your information very interesting and surprising. I > >>>> would > >>>>> have thought to start English with the toddlers class would be the > >>>>> best way to create English fluency rather than waiitng until they > >>>>> start school and come to it as a foreign language speaker. Susan > >>>>> > >>>>>> From: "Sylvan Rainwater" <sylvan@cccchs.org> > >>>>>> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >>>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >>>>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9401] RE: Illiteracy > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:34:43 -0400 (EDT) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks for this excellent post. It is certainly true that when > >> children > >>>>>> don't get good early education, they are at a disadvantage, > >> regardless > >>>> of > >>>>>> what language they are trying to learn in. In the Head Start >program > >> I > >>>> work > >>>>>> with, it's sometimes interesting to compare the immigrant kids with > >> the > >>>>>> Anglo kids here. The problems we are addressing are somewhat > >> different, > >>>> but > >>>>>> with all kids (and the adults in our Family Literacy Program), we > >> focus > >>>> on > >>>>>> literacy in developmentally appropriate ways. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With the Pre-K children we work with, language development needs to > >> be > >>>>>> primarily in the native language, gradually transitioning to more > >>>> English > >>>>>> as > >>>>>> time goes on. The 4-year-old classroom incorporates more English >than > >>>> the > >>>>>> 3-year-old classroom. The Infant/Toddler classroom tries to be > >>>>>> predominantly > >>>>>> Spanish-speaking. A good solid grounding in native language > >> development > >>>> is > >>>>>> the best foundation for learning English once children start >school. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With Anglo kids, obviously literacy and language development are > >>>> equally > >>>>>> critical, and sometimes just as difficult. We serve special needs > >>>> children, > >>>>>> too, of course, with various diagnoses of speech and/or >developmental > >>>>>> delays, and that requires special creativity and techniques on the > >> part > >>>> of > >>>>>> the teachers. We work with our Education Service District to get >help > >>>> with > >>>>>> that. In addition, many of those kids are dealing with home > >> situations > >>>> that > >>>>>> are absolutely horrendous -- drugs, abuse of all sorts, neglect, as > >>>> well as > >>>>>> basic illiteracy on several levels. All of that has to be addressed > >> in > >>>> some > >>>>>> fashion, or nothing will change in the life of that child. You can > >>>> teach > >>>>>> them phonics all you want and send them off to kindergarten, and it > >>>> won't > >>>>>> help much. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With adults, no matter what language they speak, if they haven't >had > >> a > >>>>>> thorough grounding in their native language -- in conversation, > >>>> grammar, > >>>>>> and/or literacy -- they are going to struggle with learning a new > >>>> language, > >>>>>> with basic job skills, and with figuring out how to teach their > >>>> children. > >>>>>> How can you ask a parent to read to a child, when the parent can't > >>>> read? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I completely agree that adult literacy is a crucial issue in this > >>>> country, > >>>>>> and I continue to maintain that the single best way to improve the > >>>>>> education > >>>>>> of the children is to improve the education of the parents, > >> especially > >>>> the > >>>>>> mother or primary caregiver. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------- > >>>>>> Sylvan Rainwater mailto:sylvan@cccchs.org > >>>>>> Program Managaer Family Literacy > >>>>>> Clackamas Co. Children's Commission / Head Start > >>>>>> Oregon City, OR USA > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Ken > >>>> Taber > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 5:49 PM > >>>>>> To: Multiple recipients of list > >>>>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9390] Re: Accept English Only donation? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Albert et al, > >>>>>> The Pew Hispanic Research identifies the problem that Adult ESL > >>>> Programs > >>>>>> face in this country. It also confirms that it is actually easier >to > >>>> teach > >>>>>> the foreign-born K-12 student than it is the adult. These > >> frustrations > >>>> lead > >>>>>> us to ask the ultimate question. How do we solve the problem? In > >> fact, > >>>> the > >>>>>> same is true for the American in this country that does not get a > >> good > >>>>>> early > >>>>>> education. Nationally, 22% of Americans are considered functionally > >>>>>> illiterate. That figure remains about the same. We used to have an > >>>>>> educational system that supported the industrial age where teaching > >>>> only > >>>>>> 80% > >>>>>> was acceptable. Now that we have entered the information age and > >> their > >>>> are > >>>>>> less jobs in former industries, we must get near 100% literacy in > >> this > >>>>>> country. And of those 22%, and in some cities, that figure is much > >>>> higher, > >>>>>> only 5% of those needing adult education services actually receive > >>>> them. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The only answer the government has in more accountability but the > >>>> numbers > >>>>>> still have not changed. Even with a great title like the "No Child > >> Left > >>>>>> Behind Act," we are losing the battle of adult literacy in this > >>>> country. > >>>>>> The > >>>>>> problem as was pointed out by some is adult literacy, and not just > >> for > >>>> the > >>>>>> foreign-born, but for all Americans. There are American-born US > >>>> citizens > >>>>>> who > >>>>>> speak English only that are illiterate. We have become experts at > >>>> pointing > >>>>>> the finger. We have a lot of research. What we need are applicable > >>>>>> solutions. We know the problems, they have not changed. Our >current > >>>>>> solutions have not work. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have made some observations that deal with what all teachers >should > >>>> be > >>>>>> doing. Teachers need high expectations for all their students. > >> Teachers > >>>>>> also > >>>>>> need to know the how best to teach the diversity of students in >their > >>>>>> classroom. This requires staff development. Sometimes, it is simply > >> the > >>>>>> case > >>>>>> of real research bang applied to an old problem. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I actually had a principal from another school that told me that > >>>> "Research > >>>>>> shows that English-Only programs (for LEP students) were better." > >> This > >>>> myth > >>>>>> has reached not only the some of the classrooms in my district but > >> has > >>>>>> reached its administration as well. These principals were sold a >bill > >>>> of > >>>>>> goods from the English-Only Movement and are calling it research. >The > >>>> fact > >>>>>> is the federal law allows for almost any program that can show > >> results. > >>>>>> However, it does not allow for an English Submersion Model, a sink >or > >>>> swim > >>>>>> approach or dead end approach. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There are some states that interpret the federal law to mean that > >> they > >>>> can > >>>>>> run an English-Only Approach with no staff development of their > >>>> teachers. > >>>>>> When this principal made this comment, I asked whether this >district > >>>> had an > >>>>>> English-Only Approach? The coordinator (with no ESOL training) who >I > >>>> had > >>>>>> spoken to about the law said we have an Structured English >Immersion > >>>>>> Approach which we didn't because this approach requires a highly > >>>> trained > >>>>>> staff. We may have had a Structured English Immersion Approach on > >> paper > >>>> but > >>>>>> we had an English-Only or English Submersion Approach in reality. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The SC State House tried to write a bill (H3703) last year limiting > >> LEP > >>>>>> instruction to only the first two years foreign-born students >arrive > >> in > >>>>>> this > >>>>>> country and mandating a Sheltered English Immersion Approach. They > >>>> claimed > >>>>>> in their bill that English could be learned fast. Sheltered English > >>>>>> Immersion is perhaps the least recommended approach but also the > >> least > >>>>>> costly. The only good part of the bill was that the state actually > >>>> realized > >>>>>> that it had a constitutional duty to teach these students. The bill > >>>> never > >>>>>> made it out of the SC House but it was interesting to see how > >>>> legislatures > >>>>>> don't understand the real problem or the legal history of LEP > >> programs > >>>> but > >>>>>> most of all they do not understand that English-Only laws may be a > >>>> civil > >>>>>> rights violation in an educational setting. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ken Taber > >>>>>> kentaber@inetgenesis.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>> Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! > >>>>> https://broadband.msn.com > >>>> ------- End of Original Message ------- > >>>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. > >>> http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. > > https://broadband.msn.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Use custom emotions -- try MSN Messenger 6.0! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon
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