Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id hB43sGm13534; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:54:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:54:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <CFA0B6B409EBD411ABBF0000F8CD206C06FECC64@CREXC01> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: bodman@ucc.edu To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9688] Re: TABE and Adult LAS for ESL X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Type: text/plain; X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Status: O Content-Length: 3796 Lines: 98 An interesting conversation! I agree that we have to be practical in what we teach our students. Caleb Gattegno always admonished his students, "Use your time [in class]well." That means not spending precious class time on things your students can teach themselves. If students can learn non-standard expressions "on the street" then we don't have to deal with that in class. We can spend time teaching things that they need a teacher to learn. We also have to be careful not to limit the potential of our students by striking a balance between teaching enough to survive and teaching for future potential. I remember sitting in Washington a number of years ago trying to argue that successful exit criteria from ESL programs should not only be entrance into ABE classes and GED classes or successfully finding employment. "What if our students want to go to college?" I argued. One politico said, "That's their problem. We are not here to give free education for college. Our job is to get them into a paying job." As for language that students pick up in their neighborhoods, most of my students live in neighborhoods where non-standard English is spoken. Of course they will learn it. Wassamatta with that?! Jean Bodman Union County College bodman@ucc.edu Work: 908-965-6096 Home: 609-695-6567 -----Original Message----- From: james phillips [mailto:jphilip@tenet.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:12 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9679] Re: TABE and Adult LAS for ESL Isn't what students need in the real world is oral language development. Book learning is important. But, shouldn't language learning start with speaking and understanding. Here in an area where 90% of the population is Spanish speaking or bilingual at different levels it seems like, in public schools, the emphasis starts with book learning. And, there's lots of language interference. Folks with college degrees are still saying 'these ones' and 'those ones' and 'get down from a auto' and they don't hear words that have a 's' sound at the end of a word, like 'cats' or a 'z' sound as in 'dogs'. In conversations about the subject folks will state that no one ever told them the difference. Does this seem to be a common problem? jp Sylvan Rainwater wrote: > So, what's the point of assessment? And how do we decide what to teach in > our classes? What's driving what? It seems to me that unless we look at the > outcomes we want to see for our students (or what they tell us they want to > see for themselves) we are working in an artificial environment. > > Outcomes-based education looks at desired outcomes first (what do they need > to know how to do out there in the "real world" that we are responsible for > teaching them "in here"?), and then figures out what students can do to > prove that they've learned how to do those things. Those performance tasks > are real assessments. > > Of course, sometimes the performance task is that they can pass a test so > they can move to another level <sigh>, but it's important for us all to keep > in mind what the students really need in order to function out there in the > real world, and to structure our classroom activities accordingly. > > ------- > Sylvan Rainwater mailto:sylvan@cccchs.org > Program Managaer Family Literacy > Clackamas Co. Children's Commission / Head Start > Oregon City, OR USA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Kroeger, > Miriam > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:20 AM > > <SNIP> > In addition to validity and reliability, we also have to look at > manageability, training and cost factors. <SNIP> > We are certainly on the look out for assessments that better reflect what we > are teaching in our classes.
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