Return-Path: <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id f9NCB9017686; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BD55E3C.4CD8F7A2@ellijay.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: Art LaChance <arthur@ellijay.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-LD:3638] Re: No support for Phonetic awareness as X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) Status: O Content-Length: 6179 Lines: 119 Ah Clif, I was simply relating ADHD as part of the overall problem. Which it is. Your 'testing' scenario leaves out the most important part, the negative emotional blocks that develop when a person who knows they can't keep pace with some randomly developed 'norm' are 'timed' on a performance test. Additionally, children have to be taught to read 'semantically' or with conceptual recognition, the right hemisphere doesn't automatically kick in during the learning to read cycle. I've seen many kids have spontaneous remission with reading difficulty by being taught to read with feeling. Most folks who don't get beyond the 4th or 5th grade level are stuck right there. They don't develop beyond 'word lists'. The older they are the more difficult it is to change the neural pathways related to 'reading' that have developed over time and govern automatic brain functioning. Children change almost instantly as compared to adults at age 40 or above. My experience Clif is that your scenario of limited brain functioning, for whatever reason - chemical or neuron density etc, holds true for an absolute minimum number of folks and therefore the real problem in our professional circles dealing with education and psychology. Art Clifton Willard wrote: > Art, > I did not mean to suggest that there was any relationship between ADHD and > a reading disability. I was specifically referring to reading disabilities > alone. My experience is that this model holds true for the majority, not a > small limited group. > > If phonetic awareness is the major cause and there are plenty of phonetic > based instruction/tutoring, why are there people with reading > disabilities??? Why are there so many with average and above average > ability who can't read above the forth or fifth grade level. Why can't they > read semantically rather than word for word??? The proof that it is > phonetic awareness is based on observation and measuring what is observed. > That seems rather limited. > > In all the hundreds of clients I have had over the years, I never met > anyone who had a reading disability that could read above the fifth grade > and most are at the 10% or below NPR on the Nelson-Denny Reading Test. It > would be far more accurate to measure reading rate rather than untimed > tests that avoid reading rate. If a persons reading rate was measured pre > and post remediation then you would be able to actually measure the > progress. Untimed tests in reading are poor measures of reading ability. If > a person cannot keep up with reading due to low reading rate they will > fail. If they can improve their reading rate then that would be something. > I have never seen that in a young adult of adult. Many of the elementary > children who appear to have a reading disability actually have a > developmental delay and would appear to benefit from remediation, they > would probably out grow it anyway in a learning environment. > > Clif > > At 08:56 AM 10/22/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Clif, > > > >MEd in Rehab Counseling I have. Worked with bunches of LD, ADD, ADHD, Brain > >Injured, and mental health, children and adults, in several formats and > >environments. Currently in adult literacy, working with the same groups. > > > >It's not a black and white issue. Many different ways to break an arm. Your > >understanding holds true for a very limited percentage of those saddled with > >the disablility, and it needs to be noted that the LD ADD ADHD titles are > >disabling all in themselves. It often appears that the community completing > >the assessment doesn't always know what they're looking at and the requesting > >authority only is concerned with getting a label for the child. > > > >I could go on but basically I support anything Don McCabe would tell you. > > > >Art > > > > > >Art LaChance > >Gilmer Learning Center > >Ellijay, GA > > > > > > > >Clifton Willard wrote: > > > > > As an introduction, My name is Clif Willard and I am a Licensed > > > Professional Mental Health Service Provider in Tennessee. I have a masters > > > degree in communications and a second masters degree in educational and > > > counseling psychology. I also spent 2 years in a graduate program for > > > special education, multiple disabilities. I read on a third grade level and > > > have ADHD myself. I attended thirteen different elementary schools and > > > dropped out of high school after six weeks in the ninth grade. I am an > > > adjunct assistant professor and teach a graduate class in ADHD and Language > > > Based Disabilities. I am in private practice and concentrate on young adult > > > and adult clients with language based disabilities and > > > Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder. Most clients participate in > > > counseling on a weekly basis for several years rather then short term > > > therapy. Several years ago I participated in this list. At that time I felt > > > that there was no real support for the idea that a lack of phonetic > > > awareness was the cause of a reading disability. Over the last 10 years I > > > have not found any research that supports this theory. > > > > > > My clinical experience does however support the notion that a reading > > > disability is caused by a perceptual deficit and that this perceptual > > > deficit is caused by a timing problem of one of the processors being out of > > > sync with the other processors in the system. It is a timing problem and > > > dynamic. Because it is dynamic, people with a reading disability can appear > > > to "do it" one minute but can't ten minutes later. It is part of the > > > disability, not an indication that they are "getting it." A broken clock > > > tells the correct time twice a day. > > > > > > I am aware that 98 percent of the research supports phonetic awareness as > > > does Sally Shaywits at Yale. I have looked at much of the research and find > > > that it makes all kinds of assumptions that are not supported in the > > > experience of those with the disabilities. Dr. Shaywits' research seems to > > > epitomize the folly of the research on reading disabilities/dyslexia. I was > > > wondering what you think?? > > > > > > Clif
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