Return-Path: <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id fA36aW006981; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:36:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:36:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011103012639.00a05ec0@mail> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: Clifton Willard <clifwillard@home.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-LD:3700] Phonetic awareness is X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Status: O Content-Length: 21487 Lines: 458 --=====================_4507147==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Anne, In response to your post. I 'd like to share what I have learned as I have researched why persons fail to learn to read and how to teach persons with low literacy skills. Why is it assumed that the person failed to learn to read? They most likely= =20 did not fail at anything. They were placed under unrealistic expectations=20 and then blamed for not being able to meet those expectations. =3D46irst, terminology: 1. phonemic awareness: the ability to perceive the sounds (phonemes) in words, i.e., can hear 3 sounds in cat - /k/ /a/ /t/ 2. phonological processing: can put 3 sounds together to make a word, can exchange the first and last sounds in a word, i.e., /bag/ becomes /gab/. Can remove sounds from a word, i.e., /strip/ becomes /trip/ or /rip/ 3. phonics: connecting the sounds with letters, and the rules of how words work, i.e., "i after e except after c". 4. dyslexia: the inability to do the above mental processes. Language processing difficulties/differences. See the International Dyslexia homepage, www.interdys.org. =93Dyslexia is difficulty with language. Intelligence is not the problem;= the=20 problem is language. People who are dyslexic may have difficulty with=20 reading, spelling, understanding language they hear, or expressing=20 themselves clearly in speaking or in writing. An unexpected gap exists=20 between their potential for learning and their school achievement. =B7 Dyslexia a language-based disability in which a person has= trouble=20 understanding words, sentences or paragraphs; both oral and written=20 language are affected.=94 This type of definition is one of the main reasons there's so much=20 confusion in this field. The definition essentially says nothing. It is=20 far too nondescript and nonspecific. Applying this definition to someone=20 in no way indicates what difficulty the person may have or why they are=20 having the difficulty that they're having. It is a useless definition. I recommend 2 articles at www.ldonline.org. Click on "LD indepth" and then on "Reading" - Find Reid Lyon's "Report on Learning Disabilities Research" and Foorman's "Scientific Research in Reading". Lots of other good stuff on that site. The root cause of reading problems is that the brain processes language differently, beginning with the sounds in words, then the retrieval of those sounds, connecting meaning with combined sounds (words) i.e., comprehension, speed of processing, i.e., fluency. How these language processing differences are evidenced in different individuals is a complex issue since the brain is such a complex organ. That's why finding the best way to teach individuals is a challenge! The challenge is to accept that there might be other causes. How about=20 brain process in printed language???? You just consider sound. That is=20 clearly short sighted. No interest in thinking, just accepting what someone= =20 says, even when that does not work. I do not understand that but it is more= =20 the rule that the exception. Clif, you make a necessary point - that dyslexics may not read above the 5th grade level - and little is known about how to help them increase their skills. You assume that it is something that can be taught or al lack of good=20 learned skills. Why?? You also believe that reading problems are caused by a perceptual deficit and compare that to the old woman/young woman gestalt picture. You missed the point. I used the old woman/young woman to enable readers to= =20 experience perceptual dissonence. You can look at the same image and=20 perceive it in different ways. Your brain interprets the information in=20 different ways, that is perception and in this canse perceptual dissonence,= =20 you cannot stay on just one interpretation. Well the brain of a person with= =20 a perceptual deficit in reading interprets the same image differently=20 everytime they see it. It is not vision, it is perception. Clif, you question the validity of research in this country on phonological basis of reading difficulties. Some of the earliest was done in Denmark - a longitudinal study of 100's of K-3rd grade children (Lundberg et al 1988). I have seen studies of German and Greek speakers as well. They all point to the phonological processing difficulties. I would like the reference for the psychophysics MIT study you mention. Anne, I was referring to ALL research in the field. You will find the information on Psychophysics at the MIT library of their= =20 web page. It is a fee paid library and you must be a member. It is the=20 study of the how the brain perceives what it sees. You can also search any= =20 university library. It is interesting that no one in education knows of=20 psychophysics. It is important to look outside the box. Research into the complex cognitive processes involved in reading point to inefficiencies in processing the sounds of language. They point to the ability to perceive sounds in words and how the sounds connect with letters as the fundamental process in reading (Share, 1995 Why is it so hard to accept that people also must perceive the visual image= =20 of a word accurately???? This idea is absolutely ignored. It is really=20 blind acceptance with no thinking and even less common sense. Reading problems, therefore, are not the result of developmental delay. Anne, I did not say that reading problems were the result of a=20 developmental delay. I said that a developmental delay is NOT a reading=20 disability but a developmental delay. =93Many of the elementary children who appear to have a reading disability= =20 actually have a developmental delay and would appear to benefit from=20 remediation, they would probably out grow it anyway in a learning= environment.=94 What was most disturbing about Dr. Lyons report is not only what he did say= =20 but more importantly what he did not say. =93It is clear from our NICHD-supported longitudinal studies that follow= good=20 and poor readers from kindergarten into young adulthood that our young poor= =20 readers are largely doomed to such failure from the beginning. By the end=20 of the first grade, we begin to notice substantial decreases in the children=92s self-esteem, self-concept,= =20 and motivation to learn to read if they have not been able to master=20 reading skills and keep up with their age-mates. As we follow the children= =20 through elementary and middle school grades, these problems compound, and,= =20 in many cases, very bright youngsters are unable to learn about the wonders= =20 of science, mathematics, literature and the like because they can not read= =20 the grade-level textbooks. By high school, these children=92s potential for= =20 entering college has decreased to almost nil, with few choices available to= =20 them with respect to occupational and vocational opportunities.=94 Unfortunately this is what happens. It is totally unnecessary and an utter= =20 disgrace that it is allowed to continue. It is just accepted as inevitable.= =20 How cruel. I know many students who read at a poor reader=92s level and are= =20 in college and have graduated from college and are doing very well. I know= =20 of one student who has a reading disability and is getting his Ph.,D. in=20 history. There is absolutely no reason why someone with average or above=20 ability cannot graduate from college and have access to a career and all=20 the benefits of a college education. It is just blind ignorance that=20 maintains this myth. I have never had a client who could not be successful= =20 in college or high school because of a reading disability. The problem is=20 the people in those schools who abuse these students and then blame them=20 for not being successful. It really makes me angry because it is so=20 unnecessary. The teachers in elementary school are directly responsible for= =20 the failure of the students to be successful academically. With reasonable= =20 accommodations, they would be able to minimize the amount they are disabled= =20 by their disability. That is just a fact but totally ignored by Dr. Lyons. =93While the ability to read words accurately is a necessary skill in=20 learning to read, the speed at which this is done becomes a critical factor= =20 in ensuring that children understand what they read." This cannot be done if one does not accurately perceive the printed word no= =20 matter what you teach or how you teach it. You cannot have any impact on=20 how someone perceives printed language. To ignore this is a real disservice. The rest of the report is just support for phonetic awareness as the cause. Anne, listing endless research is redundant and it does not prove anything,= =20 that is the point. It does not include perception of printed language as=20 significant. What do you think?? I know the research and the many reports=20 to NIHCD. It all says the same thing but it has little effect on the=20 results, only more research to prove the same thing over and over and over= =20 again. Why is there so much research of the same thing??? Why do people=20 continue to research the same idea?? I believe because the theory does not= =20 work so maybe research will make it work. Have you asked your students what is going on in their heads when they are= =20 trying to read???? What do they say?? Do you listen?? Do you only hear what= =20 fits the OG+ methods and thinking???? This is important. Research is what=20 you want it to be. Research however is not an excuse for failure. Relying=20 on research to mask failure is not being honest. What do you REALLY think??? If you want, be anonymous and say what YOU=20 think, not the research. Clif --=====================_4507147==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> Dear Anne,<br><br> <font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica">In response to your post. <br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">I 'd like to share=20 <br> what I have learned as I have researched why persons fail to learn to <br> read and how to teach persons with low literacy skills. <br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>Why is it assumed that the person failed to learn to read? They most likely did not fail at anything. They were placed under unrealistic expectations and then blamed for not being able to meet those expectations. <br><br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">=3D46irst, terminology:<br> 1. phonemic awareness: the ability to perceive the sounds (phonemes) <br> in words, i.e., can hear 3 sounds in cat - /k/ /a/ /t/<br> 2. phonological processing: can put 3 sounds together to make a <br> word, can exchange the first and last sounds in a word, i.e., /bag/=20 <br> becomes /gab/. Can remove sounds from a word, i.e., /strip/ becomes <br> /trip/ or /rip/<br> 3. phonics: connecting the sounds with letters, and the rules of how <br> words work, i.e., "i after e except after c".<br> 4. dyslexia: the inability to do the above mental processes. <br> Language processing difficulties/differences. See the International <br> Dyslexia homepage, </font><a href=3D"http://www.interdys.org/" eudora=3D"autourl"><font= face=3D"Courier New, Courier"= color=3D"#0000FF"><u>www.interdys.org</a></u></font><font face=3D"Times New= Roman, Times">. <br><br> </font>=93Dyslexia is difficulty with language. Intelligence is not the problem; the problem is language. People who are dyslexic may have difficulty with reading, spelling, understanding language they hear, or expressing themselves clearly in speaking or in writing. An unexpected gap exists between their potential for learning and their school achievement.=20 <dl><font face=3D"Symbol"> <dd>=B7<x-tab> </x-tab></font><b>Dy= slexia </b> a language-based disability in which a person has trouble understanding words, sentences or paragraphs; both oral and written language are affected.=94 </dl>This type of definition is one of the main reasons there's so much confusion in this field. The definition essentially says nothing. It is far too nondescript and nonspecific. Applying this definition to someone in no way indicates what difficulty the person may have or why they are having the difficulty that they're having. It is a useless definition.<br><br> <br><br> <br> <font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">I recommend 2 articles at <a href=3D"http://www.ldonline.org/" eudora=3D"autourl">www.ldonline.org</a>= . Click on "LD indepth" <br> and then on "Reading" - Find Reid Lyon's "Report on Learning <br> Disabilities Research" and Foorman's "Scientific Research in <br> Reading". Lots of other good stuff on that site.<br><br> <br> The root cause of reading problems is that the brain processes <br> language differently, beginning with the sounds in words, then the <br> retrieval of those sounds, connecting meaning with combined sounds <br> (words) i.e., comprehension, speed of processing, i.e., fluency. How <br> these language processing differences are evidenced in different <br> individuals is a complex issue since the brain is such a complex <br> organ. That's why finding the best way to teach individuals is a <br> challenge!<br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>The challenge is to accept that there might be other causes. How about brain process in printed language???? You just consider sound. That is clearly short sighted. No interest in thinking, just accepting what someone says, even when that does not work. I do not understand that but it is more the rule that the exception. <br><br> <br><br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">Clif, you make a necessary point - that dyslexics may not read above <br> the 5th grade level - and little is known about how to help them <br> increase their skills.<br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>You assume that it is something that can be taught or al lack of good learned skills. Why?? <br><br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">You also believe that reading problems are caused by a perceptual <br> deficit and compare that to the old woman/young woman gestalt <br> picture. <br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>You missed the point. = I used the old woman/young woman to enable readers to experience perceptual dissonence. You can look at the same image and perceive it in different ways. Your brain interprets the information in different ways, that is perception and in this canse perceptual dissonence, you cannot stay on just one interpretation. Well the brain of a person with a perceptual deficit in reading interprets the same image differently everytime they see it. It is not vision, it is perception. <br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">Clif, you question the validity of research in this country on <br> phonological basis of reading difficulties. Some of the earliest was <br> done in Denmark - a longitudinal study of 100's of K-3rd grade <br> children (Lundberg et al 1988). I have seen studies of German and <br> Greek speakers as well. They all point to the phonological <br> processing difficulties. I would like the reference for the <br> psychophysics MIT study you mention.<br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>Anne, I was referring to ALL research in the field. <br><br> You will find the information on Psychophysics at the MIT library of their web page. It is a fee paid library and you must be a member. It is the study of the how the brain perceives what it sees. You can also search any university library. It is interesting that no one in education knows of psychophysics. It is important to look outside the box. <br><br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">Research into the complex cognitive processes involved in reading <br> point to inefficiencies in processing the sounds of language. They <br> point to the ability to perceive sounds in words and how the sounds=20 <br> connect with letters as the fundamental process in reading (Share, <br> 1995<br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>Why is it so hard to accept that people also must perceive the visual image of a word accurately???? This idea is absolutely ignored. It is really blind acceptance with no thinking and even less common sense.<br><br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">Reading problems, therefore, are not the result of developmental <br> delay. <br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>Anne, I did not say that reading problems were the result of a developmental delay. I said that a developmental delay is NOT a reading disability but a developmental delay. <br><br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D4>=93Many of the elementar= y children who appear to have a reading disability actually have a developmental delay and would appear to benefit from remediation, they would probably out grow it anyway in a learning environment.=94<br><br> <br><br> What was most disturbing about Dr. Lyons report is not only what he did say but more importantly what he did not say. <br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">=93It is clear from our NICHD-supported longitudinal studies that follow good and poor readers from kindergarten into young adulthood that our young poor readers are largely doomed to such failure from the beginning. By the end of the first grade, we begin to <br> notice substantial decreases in the children=92s self-esteem, self-concept, and motivation to learn to read if they have not been able to master reading skills and keep up with their age-mates. As we follow the children through elementary and middle school grades, these problems compound, and, in many cases, very bright youngsters are unable to learn about the wonders of science, mathematics, literature and the like because they can not read the grade-level textbooks. By high school, these children=92s potential for entering college has decreased to almost nil, with few choices available to them with respect to occupational and vocational opportunities.=94<br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>Unfortunately this is what happens. It is totally unnecessary and an utter disgrace that it is allowed to continue. It is just accepted as inevitable. How cruel. I know many students who read at a poor reader=92s level and are in college and have graduated from college and are doing very well. I know of one student who has a reading disability and is getting his Ph.,D. in history. There is absolutely no reason why someone with average or above ability cannot graduate from college and have access to a career and all the benefits of a college education. It is just blind ignorance that maintains this myth. I have never had a client who could not be successful in college or high school because of a reading disability. The problem is the people in those schools who abuse these students and then blame them for not being successful. It really makes me angry because it is so unnecessary. The teachers in elementary school are directly responsible for the failure of the students to be successful academically. With reasonable accommodations, they would be able to minimize the amount they are disabled by their disability. That is just a fact but totally ignored by Dr. Lyons.<br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">=93While the ability to read words accurately is a necessary skill in learning to read, the speed at which this is done becomes a critical factor in ensuring that children understand what they read."<br><br> </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>This cannot be done if one does not accurately perceive the printed word no matter what you teach or how you teach it. You cannot have any impact on how someone perceives printed language. To ignore this is a real=20 disservice.<br><br> The rest of the report is just support for phonetic awareness as the cause. <br><br> <br> Anne, listing endless research is redundant and it does not prove anything, that is the point. It does not include perception of printed language as significant. What do you think?? I know the research and the many reports to NIHCD. It all says the same thing but it has little effect on the results, only more research to prove the same thing over and over and over again. Why is there so much research of the same thing??? Why do people continue to research the same idea?? I believe because the theory does not work so maybe research will make it work. <br><br> Have you asked your students what is going on in their heads when they are trying to read???? What do they say?? Do you listen?? Do you only hear what fits the OG+ methods and thinking???? This is important. Research is what you want it to be. Research however is not an excuse for failure. Relying on research to mask failure is not being honest. <br><br> What do you REALLY think??? If you want, be anonymous and say what YOU think, not the research.<br><br> Clif<br> </font></html> --=====================_4507147==_.ALT--
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