Return-Path: <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id fA80r4007644; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:53:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:53:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <008d01c167ef$1b447340$d75bf9d8@computer> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Karen Emerson" <kemerson@earthlink.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-LD:3750] re: Cliff Willard's letter X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; Status: O Content-Length: 11212 Lines: 304 Very Interesting. I would like to know more about TABE do you have any suggestions? Karen > Clif, > Interesting thoughts you provide. In a small study a couple of years ago I > discovered that virtually all of my respondents had experienced a significant > emotional situation in their early years in school. I assumed that these > experiences had a negative effect on their capability to 'learn' mainly because > their initial assessments indicated that their skills stopped progressing at the > time of the experience. In other words, a student whose parents went through a > messy divorce when she was in the third grade scored in that range on the TABE when > she first entered adult lit classes. So too a student who was publically > embarrassed to tears by a fifth grade math teacher, her math capability was limited > to 5th grade, plus or minus a year. > Some further investigation revealed that most of our adult students had a > significant history of some emotional disruption or unresolved conflict in the > early school years. > One argument against this thought is that we all experience significant emotional > garbage simply as a matter of living life. The conclusion I arrived at on this > point was that it is true but not all of us have the luxury of having someone to > help us as children resolve these difficulties. I played 20 questions with a 38 yr > old female to discover that her 8th grade teacher used to make fun of her last name > - her reading and language skills were above average and at the 11th and higher > grade levels - while math capability stopped cleanly at the 8th grade level > (TABE). In fact the issue was so hidden deep within that it only came out after > the session was complete, as I asked questions she became visibly angry (unusual > for this girl) and eyes watered up (what 20 years later?). Her history was the > least influential when compared to the rest of that particular group. > Now I know that lots and lots of folks don't believe in the TABE reference system, > but I can tell you without reservation that I saw clear correlation between these > issues utilizing TABE. > > I've also lightly studied brain functioning related to "learning" processes and it > appears quite clearly to me that if there is a "timing" problem, it does in fact > hinder 'data' transfer, but it also noticeably affects correlation of information > and decision making in whatever area of the brain that may be influenced. In other > words a person with left frontal hemisphere 'damage' may show signs of difficulty > with simple logic. A person with right frontal hemisphere limitations may show > signs of not being able to recognize or develop conceptual ideas and form > inappropriate decisions in relation to these ideas, and may further show signs of > emotional control difficulties. All of which must be compared to some "norm" of > course, but the indications I'm talking about are quite noticeable. Occipital > damage will most probably show up as visual processing problems. etc etc. > ad-infinitum. > > I did acquire expressive and receptive language aphasia at age 10 and lost almost > 100% capability, written and speech. Recovered both over time as a matter of > necessity but only to the level allowed by normal life until about 10 years ago. > Forty years of failure to communicate. A job in Rehab as an evaluator led me to > the root cause of my dilemma. I've corrected much of it since. > > We as a society have a strong tendency to treat the symptom, the medical community > is structured to that end for example, without looking for the real causal factors, > and or prevention. Most of what we respond with is stop-gap measures and this is > quite evident in the school systems of the day. Any difficulty the child may have > in "learning" is defined as the child's problem. A zillion different genetic > structure possibilities dictate that indeed children may not be capable of > "learning" with the approximate efficiency of their peers, but I offer to you that > these folks are in a very small minority (no less important however) while the > majority of young folks defined by our current processes may have quite different > and very possibly correctable factors involved. Having the wherwithal to deal with > these issues is a different story. > > I look forward to continuation of this particular discussion. > > > Art > > > Art LaChance > Gilmer Learning Center > Ellijay, GA > > > > > > > > Clifton Willard wrote: > > > Patricia, > > > > That is exactly what I am saying. The greater question is," Is the reading > > disability the disability or the symptom of something else?" If you think > > of it as a symptom then we need to determine what is causing this symptom, > > not treat the symptom. There are many different causes for the same > > symptom. A person with a developmental delay will exhibit the same symptoms > > to the observer as a person with a reading disability. We need to know that > > it is a developmental delay and treat the developmental delay, not the > > symptom of difficulty reading. A reading disability caused by a perceptual > > deficit in printed words would be treated differently than a developmental > > delay or low functioning. A perceptual deficit in receptive language would > > be treated differently then someone who had not learned phonetics. We need > > to get below the symptom and stop treating a symptom. Treating symptoms has > > little real benefit. Treating the pain of a broken leg with not heal the > > leg. We need to know more about the individuals with the symptoms to really > > get a handle on the possible causes. There are over 30 different neural > > pathways for visual stimuli. How can this be ignored? > > > > I encourage your research it is the type of effort that brings real > > benefits. Remember that when reading disabilities were first recorded in > > the 19th century, they were referred to as, "word blindness." I think they > > had something. > > > > Clif > > > > At 02:36 PM 11/1/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Patricia Rosen wrote: > > > > > > > Cliff, > > > > > > > > Are you saying that you do not agree with the idea that work in > > > phonological > > > > awareness can benefit those with learning disabilities? > > > > > > > > I have often thought the same myself. Yes, I agree that phonological > > > > awareness is an indicator of reading ability - but can it effectively be > > > > 'taught' to those who have learning disabilities? After only 3 years of > > > > research and practice I am starting to have my doubts. I am beginning to > > > > realize that what I am actually teaching my students with learning > > > > disabilities are 'tricks' in how to locate and organize the information > > > that > > > > they need in order to be successfull at whatever task they are undertaking. > > > > > > > > The teaching of phonological awareness skills does have an important role. > > > > It quickly distinguishes between those students who are simply taking > > > longer > > > > to learn how to read with those who have learning disabilities. > > > > > > > > That's my opinion, and I will be researching this very issue during the > > > next > > > > few years through the University of Toronto and at my place of work in > > > > Montreal, Quebec where I work as a resource teacher with middle school > > > > students. > > > > > > > > I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts. > > > > > > > > Patricia Rosen > > > > prosen@oise.utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > >From: Clifton Willard <clifwillard@home.com> > > > > >Reply-To: nifl-ld@nifl.gov > > > > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> > > > > >Subject: [NIFL-LD:3625] No support for Phonetic awareness as cause of > > > > >reading > > > > >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:28:34 -0400 (EDT) > > > > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > > >Received: from [192.188.111.2] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id > > > > >MHotMailBD9A3A65003A40043222C0BC6F02A5DE0; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:28:54 -0700 > > > > >Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1])by literacy.nifl.gov > > > > >(8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id f9K3SY020045;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:28:34 -0400 > > > > >(EDT) > > > > >From nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:28:57 -0700 > > > > >Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011020101832.00a00080@mail> > > > > >Errors-To: listowner@nifl.gov > > > > >Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov > > > > >Sender: nifl-ld@nifl.gov > > > > >Precedence: bulk > > > > >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > > > > >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 > > > > > > > > > >As an introduction, My name is Clif Willard and I am a Licensed > > > > >Professional Mental Health Service Provider in Tennessee. I have a masters > > > > >degree in communications and a second masters degree in educational and > > > > >counseling psychology. I also spent 2 years in a graduate program for > > > > >special education, multiple disabilities. I read on a third grade > > > level and > > > > >have ADHD myself. I attended thirteen different elementary schools and > > > > >dropped out of high school after six weeks in the ninth grade. I am an > > > > >adjunct assistant professor and teach a graduate class in ADHD and > > > Language > > > > >Based Disabilities. I am in private practice and concentrate on young > > > adult > > > > >and adult clients with language based disabilities and > > > > >Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder. Most clients participate in > > > > >counseling on a weekly basis for several years rather then short term > > > > >therapy. Several years ago I participated in this list. At that time I > > > felt > > > > >that there was no real support for the idea that a lack of phonetic > > > > >awareness was the cause of a reading disability. Over the last 10 years I > > > > >have not found any research that supports this theory. > > > > > > > > > >My clinical experience does however support the notion that a reading > > > > >disability is caused by a perceptual deficit and that this perceptual > > > > >deficit is caused by a timing problem of one of the processors being > > > out of > > > > >sync with the other processors in the system. It is a timing problem and > > > > >dynamic. Because it is dynamic, people with a reading disability can > > > appear > > > > >to "do it" one minute but can't ten minutes later. It is part of the > > > > >disability, not an indication that they are "getting it." A broken clock > > > > >tells the correct time twice a day. > > > > > > > > > >I am aware that 98 percent of the research supports phonetic awareness as > > > > >does Sally Shaywits at Yale. I have looked at much of the research and > > > find > > > > >that it makes all kinds of assumptions that are not supported in the > > > > >experience of those with the disabilities. Dr. Shaywits' research seems to > > > > >epitomize the folly of the research on reading disabilities/dyslexia. > > > I was > > > > >wondering what you think?? > > > > > > > > > >Clif > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >
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