Return-Path: <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id fA84OS011143; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:24:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:24:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <000701c1680e$91892680$bde4e5d0@pavilion> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Barbara E. Morey" <advocate@olypen.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-LD:3751] re: Cliff Willard's letter X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; Status: O Content-Length: 13005 Lines: 351 Hi All, I started using the TABE in an Adult Basic Education program in the early 1970's. One of the practical things about it is that it is "diagnostic" in terms of skills that the student needs to work on. For example, comprehension questions within the test are broken down into main idea, supporting details, fact/opinion, conclusion etc. as well as grade level. The student's responses are grouped and evaluated according to skill areas so that specific remedial action may be taken to teach the skills that each individual student needs. The same holds true with math and language arts. We used the WRAT (Wide Range Achievement Test) as a locator for the level of the TABE to use with the student. It also provides a "second opinion" of skill level for validation. (I would not, however, recommend the WRAT alone.) We also used the TABE in an untimed setting and found that there was no significant difference in it's accuracy in identifying the student's problems in reading. We marked where the student finished at the end of the timing, then had them continue until they had completed the test. We then built individualized curriculum focusing on the particular problems that had been identified for each student....Barbara Morey, Port Townsend, WA -----Original Message----- From: Karen Emerson <kemerson@earthlink.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Date: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 5:12 PM Subject: [NIFL-LD:3750] re: Cliff Willard's letter > >Very Interesting. I would like to know more about TABE do you have any >suggestions? Karen > > >> Clif, >> Interesting thoughts you provide. In a small study a couple of years ago >I >> discovered that virtually all of my respondents had experienced a >significant >> emotional situation in their early years in school. I assumed that these >> experiences had a negative effect on their capability to 'learn' mainly >because >> their initial assessments indicated that their skills stopped progressing >at the >> time of the experience. In other words, a student whose parents went >through a >> messy divorce when she was in the third grade scored in that range on the >TABE when >> she first entered adult lit classes. So too a student who was publically >> embarrassed to tears by a fifth grade math teacher, her math capability >was limited >> to 5th grade, plus or minus a year. >> Some further investigation revealed that most of our adult students had a >> significant history of some emotional disruption or unresolved conflict in >the >> early school years. >> One argument against this thought is that we all experience significant >emotional >> garbage simply as a matter of living life. The conclusion I arrived at on >this >> point was that it is true but not all of us have the luxury of having >someone to >> help us as children resolve these difficulties. I played 20 questions >with a 38 yr >> old female to discover that her 8th grade teacher used to make fun of her >last name >> - her reading and language skills were above average and at the 11th and >higher >> grade levels - while math capability stopped cleanly at the 8th grade >level >> (TABE). In fact the issue was so hidden deep within that it only came out >after >> the session was complete, as I asked questions she became visibly angry >(unusual >> for this girl) and eyes watered up (what 20 years later?). Her history >was the >> least influential when compared to the rest of that particular group. >> Now I know that lots and lots of folks don't believe in the TABE reference >system, >> but I can tell you without reservation that I saw clear correlation >between these >> issues utilizing TABE. >> >> I've also lightly studied brain functioning related to "learning" >processes and it >> appears quite clearly to me that if there is a "timing" problem, it does >in fact >> hinder 'data' transfer, but it also noticeably affects correlation of >information >> and decision making in whatever area of the brain that may be influenced. >In other >> words a person with left frontal hemisphere 'damage' may show signs of >difficulty >> with simple logic. A person with right frontal hemisphere limitations may >show >> signs of not being able to recognize or develop conceptual ideas and form >> inappropriate decisions in relation to these ideas, and may further show >signs of >> emotional control difficulties. All of which must be compared to some >"norm" of >> course, but the indications I'm talking about are quite noticeable. >Occipital >> damage will most probably show up as visual processing problems. etc etc. >> ad-infinitum. >> >> I did acquire expressive and receptive language aphasia at age 10 and lost >almost >> 100% capability, written and speech. Recovered both over time as a matter >of >> necessity but only to the level allowed by normal life until about 10 >years ago. >> Forty years of failure to communicate. A job in Rehab as an evaluator led >me to >> the root cause of my dilemma. I've corrected much of it since. >> >> We as a society have a strong tendency to treat the symptom, the medical >community >> is structured to that end for example, without looking for the real causal >factors, >> and or prevention. Most of what we respond with is stop-gap measures and >this is >> quite evident in the school systems of the day. Any difficulty the child >may have >> in "learning" is defined as the child's problem. A zillion different >genetic >> structure possibilities dictate that indeed children may not be capable of >> "learning" with the approximate efficiency of their peers, but I offer to >you that >> these folks are in a very small minority (no less important however) while >the >> majority of young folks defined by our current processes may have quite >different >> and very possibly correctable factors involved. Having the wherwithal to >deal with >> these issues is a different story. >> >> I look forward to continuation of this particular discussion. >> >> >> Art >> >> >> Art LaChance >> Gilmer Learning Center >> Ellijay, GA >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Clifton Willard wrote: >> >> > Patricia, >> > >> > That is exactly what I am saying. The greater question is," Is the >reading >> > disability the disability or the symptom of something else?" If you >think >> > of it as a symptom then we need to determine what is causing this >symptom, >> > not treat the symptom. There are many different causes for the same >> > symptom. A person with a developmental delay will exhibit the same >symptoms >> > to the observer as a person with a reading disability. We need to know >that >> > it is a developmental delay and treat the developmental delay, not the >> > symptom of difficulty reading. A reading disability caused by a >perceptual >> > deficit in printed words would be treated differently than a >developmental >> > delay or low functioning. A perceptual deficit in receptive language >would >> > be treated differently then someone who had not learned phonetics. We >need >> > to get below the symptom and stop treating a symptom. Treating symptoms >has >> > little real benefit. Treating the pain of a broken leg with not heal the >> > leg. We need to know more about the individuals with the symptoms to >really >> > get a handle on the possible causes. There are over 30 different neural >> > pathways for visual stimuli. How can this be ignored? >> > >> > I encourage your research it is the type of effort that brings real >> > benefits. Remember that when reading disabilities were first recorded in >> > the 19th century, they were referred to as, "word blindness." I think >they >> > had something. >> > >> > Clif >> > >> > At 02:36 PM 11/1/01 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> > >Patricia Rosen wrote: >> > > >> > > > Cliff, >> > > > >> > > > Are you saying that you do not agree with the idea that work in >> > > phonological >> > > > awareness can benefit those with learning disabilities? >> > > > >> > > > I have often thought the same myself. Yes, I agree that phonological >> > > > awareness is an indicator of reading ability - but can it >effectively be >> > > > 'taught' to those who have learning disabilities? After only 3 years >of >> > > > research and practice I am starting to have my doubts. I am >beginning to >> > > > realize that what I am actually teaching my students with learning >> > > > disabilities are 'tricks' in how to locate and organize the >information >> > > that >> > > > they need in order to be successfull at whatever task they are >undertaking. >> > > > >> > > > The teaching of phonological awareness skills does have an important >role. >> > > > It quickly distinguishes between those students who are simply >taking >> > > longer >> > > > to learn how to read with those who have learning disabilities. >> > > > >> > > > That's my opinion, and I will be researching this very issue during >the >> > > next >> > > > few years through the University of Toronto and at my place of work >in >> > > > Montreal, Quebec where I work as a resource teacher with middle >school >> > > > students. >> > > > >> > > > I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts. >> > > > >> > > > Patricia Rosen >> > > > prosen@oise.utoronto.ca >> > > > >> > > > >From: Clifton Willard <clifwillard@home.com> >> > > > >Reply-To: nifl-ld@nifl.gov >> > > > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> >> > > > >Subject: [NIFL-LD:3625] No support for Phonetic awareness as cause >of >> > > > >reading >> > > > >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:28:34 -0400 (EDT) >> > > > >MIME-Version: 1.0 >> > > > >Received: from [192.188.111.2] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >> > > > >MHotMailBD9A3A65003A40043222C0BC6F02A5DE0; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 >20:28:54 -0700 >> > > > >Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1])by literacy.nifl.gov >> > > > >(8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id f9K3SY020045;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 >23:28:34 -0400 >> > > > >(EDT) >> > > > >From nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:28:57 -0700 >> > > > >Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011020101832.00a00080@mail> >> > > > >Errors-To: listowner@nifl.gov >> > > > >Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov >> > > > >Sender: nifl-ld@nifl.gov >> > > > >Precedence: bulk >> > > > >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios >Kotsikonas >> > > > >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 >> > > > > >> > > > >As an introduction, My name is Clif Willard and I am a Licensed >> > > > >Professional Mental Health Service Provider in Tennessee. I have a >masters >> > > > >degree in communications and a second masters degree in educational >and >> > > > >counseling psychology. I also spent 2 years in a graduate program >for >> > > > >special education, multiple disabilities. I read on a third grade >> > > level and >> > > > >have ADHD myself. I attended thirteen different elementary schools >and >> > > > >dropped out of high school after six weeks in the ninth grade. I am >an >> > > > >adjunct assistant professor and teach a graduate class in ADHD and >> > > Language >> > > > >Based Disabilities. I am in private practice and concentrate on >young >> > > adult >> > > > >and adult clients with language based disabilities and >> > > > >Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder. Most clients participate >in >> > > > >counseling on a weekly basis for several years rather then short >term >> > > > >therapy. Several years ago I participated in this list. At that >time I >> > > felt >> > > > >that there was no real support for the idea that a lack of phonetic >> > > > >awareness was the cause of a reading disability. Over the last 10 >years I >> > > > >have not found any research that supports this theory. >> > > > > >> > > > >My clinical experience does however support the notion that a >reading >> > > > >disability is caused by a perceptual deficit and that this >perceptual >> > > > >deficit is caused by a timing problem of one of the processors >being >> > > out of >> > > > >sync with the other processors in the system. It is a timing >problem and >> > > > >dynamic. Because it is dynamic, people with a reading disability >can >> > > appear >> > > > >to "do it" one minute but can't ten minutes later. It is part of >the >> > > > >disability, not an indication that they are "getting it." A broken >clock >> > > > >tells the correct time twice a day. >> > > > > >> > > > >I am aware that 98 percent of the research supports phonetic >awareness as >> > > > >does Sally Shaywits at Yale. I have looked at much of the research >and >> > > find >> > > > >that it makes all kinds of assumptions that are not supported in >the >> > > > >experience of those with the disabilities. Dr. Shaywits' research >seems to >> > > > >epitomize the folly of the research on reading >disabilities/dyslexia. >> > > I was >> > > > >wondering what you think?? >> > > > > >> > > > >Clif >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ >> > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >> >
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