Return-Path: <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g0MEvun00411; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:57:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:57:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3C4D7E05.34612FCC@ellijay.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: Art LaChance <arthur@ellijay.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-LD:3852] RE: NIFL-LD:3810 NO Support for phonetic X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) Status: O Content-Length: 4591 Lines: 94 Nancy, The PMT is available through McCarron-Dial Systems, POBox 45628, Dallas, TX 75245, (214)247-5945. It is a standardized instrument, although it may not be on whoevers "approved" list. It is used quite extensively in the field of rehab specifically to confirm capacities for visual, auditiory, and spatial memory skills. It will confirm immediate and short term memory. It does not assume prior perfect exposure to reading or math, in fact there is no reading or math involved, although it does use symbology, so you can see "learning of new material" right there in front of you. It does not require formal training prior to administration. A computer based report provides a complete synopsis of capabilities. It's not expensive for what you get. It comes with many years of history and carries high reliability. It does not require "certification" or "licensing". Children fall through the cracks for a myriad of reasons. All they have to do is miss the one hour of verbal presentation where the teacher put forth the one main clue to long division processes and bingo they have a "gap" in their understanding. The real question is whether or not the gap can be filled in. The very nature of the term LD says that it can't be remediated. If the gap isn't addressed and filled in for 10 years or so then the chances of it happening in a three hour adult literacy class is slim simply as a result of high density neural pathways that control long division processes, right or wrong they follow the game plan. The PMT will tell you if it's possible to fill in the gap, and/or lead you to ask what other factors need to be addressed - emotions - self-image - repetetion of info - more experience??. Art Nashansen@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/17/2002 arthur@ellijay.com writes: > > << I'm NOT looking for an argument here, "discussion" yes. I am sorry Clif > left > the discussion and the list. And I do respond quite well to "Shut-up Art". > >> > > This NIFL article was very stimulating for me. Wouldn't it be nice if we had > some "pat answer" that would tell us exactly why a child "fell through the > cracks" ... I agree with you about this message. > > THE ABOVE: You are far more generous than *I* would be saying publicly you > are sorry Clif isn't on the list responding to the discussion. Art - He > doesn't **know** how to discuss! Did he actually TELL you on-line to shut > up???? The gall. > > You also wrote: > << I've used the McCarron-Dial Perceptual Memory Task (PMT) on several > occasions at > a local level in the adult literacy classroom to verify that the visual, > auditory, and spatial capabilities were not dysfunctional in order to rule out > limitations in data handling / 'learning'. >> > > What publishing house stocks this evaluation tool? Is it an expensive tool > and is it a standardized test that is accepted by the fed's? I was told that > the only way I was going to be able to get around TABE testing our adult > learners is with a standardized test. > > Next writing: > << We've all taught students who just never got it. But why didn't they get > it? > They could do a bunch of other stuff, why can't they do long division? Years > of > practicing erroneous procedures in long division, or any other brain dependent > skill, sets up indelible neural pathways that interfere with new information. > That's why I indicated that children can be brought back on track much quicker > than adults because the pathways are not so strong. Adults require much > support > and much repetetion of new skills simply to build the trust of usage required > before they will incorporate the new as replacements for the old. And even > then, in times of stress (testing), they will often revert back to the old, > because it has stronger influence, even though it may be incorrect and they > know > it. >> > > This paragraph made *me* wonder if the child described in the first sentence > really can get much out of an adult literacy program. Do you think they can? > > I *do* agree with your premise that "adults reauire much support and much > repetition" because that's one of the factors Laubach's written materials > use. Sometimes it's very hard for me to get the tutor whose excellent > reading capabilities make his/her want to push forward without repetition > activities the next tutoring session. Testing??? That last sentence is why > I'm fighting TABE testing as required by the S.D. Dept. of Labor for the > minimal amount of funding we received. > > Thanks for sharing your ideas. > > Nancy Hansen
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