Return-Path: <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g2HIU1u16829; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:30:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:30:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <72B48E6344C1D511B83D00805FA70F376A114D@ntxdistrict.sdccd.cc.ca.us> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: Marie Doerner <mdoerner@sdccd.cc.ca.us> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-LD:3952] RE: The ceiling effect X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Type: text/plain; X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) Status: O Content-Length: 3842 Lines: 97 If i believed in the ceiling, I would have a difficult time working hard to teach students. So I don't believe. However, I work with students to estimate time to learn. If we expect , based on previous history , standardized testing and teacher input, that learning will take an extended period. We discuss vocational training opportunities that could go hand in hand with literacy training. My rule of thumb goes like this reading level K-2 learning letters and sounds and sight words reading level 3-5 extending vocabulary, learning comprehension skills (mostly concrete), working on fluency, extending sight words Up till 5th grade level the student is learning to read. From there the job is reading to learn reading level6+ continued from 3-5 but include abstract comprehension, abstract inference, abstract analysis and synthesis of ideas. Many students have difficulty with abstraction and that is why they get stuck. I teach students about abstraction and we practice. This has worked fairly successfully at our school. Marie Doerner San Diego Community College -----Original Message----- From: john.makay@excite.com To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: 3/14/02 12:44 PM Subject: [NIFL-LD:3950] The ceiling effect Dear Barbara, Thank you for being so prompt in answering my letter. I am a bit reluctant to post at times. The tone is often so academic, and I feel a bit inferior with some of my questions. Yet, I have found the meaningful dialogue and occasional "ruffling of feathers" the spice of the list.serv and thus quite engaging as a learning vehicle most needed for educators and policy makers. Personally, I have learned a great deal in the last three days. This list.serv has answered questions that I have pondered at great length, questions that for years have gone unanswered through channels in my traditional learning community. . . . getting back to my question. I am asking about a "ceiling effect" (first mentioned by Clif) where adult students with dyslexia tend to reach a limit of a 5.9 grade level in reading. If Clif's assumption is correct, this has great implications for programming in literacy education across the country. In other words, it seems to support a model where reading instruction must be tempered with accomodation at a certain point in the education cycle of some of our students. As Clif points out . . . all students with normal comprehension abilities should have the opportunity to go to college or pursue other life and work choices that formally required a high level of literacy. Please don't misinterpret my meaning here. I find literacy a valid goal as most of the industrialized world functions under this paradigm, but possibly, this goal should not be our only focus. This thought might be frightening for some. So, again I ask you to help me get to the bottom of this. I understand that many have had great success getting some students to a very high level using OT and other phonics based methods. In fact, in your message, you mentioned that you had success with some individuals in reading and spelling where students were reading on a twelfth grade level. Yet, my question remains unanswered. Does a "ceiling effect" actually exist for a specific group of students, and if so, how many fall into this catagory. What common characteristics do these students have? Barbara, thank you again for giving me some leads. Yet, I open up this question again. If anyone has experiential or research-based information to this effect, please, let us look at it carefully together. Thank you for helping me to establish the ground rules. John John Makay ESL Instructor Baltimore City Community College 600 E. Lombard St. Baltimore, MD 21214 (410) 986-5430 _____ <<Research on the ceiling effect adults with dyslexia>>
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