Return-Path: <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id j3FGD2G20160; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <142.4396701f.2f91416b@aol.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: RKenyon721@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-LD:4712] Expanding Discussion on LD X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Status: O Content-Length: 7239 Lines: 163 Hello all, Thanks to Susan for her comments. It reminds me that much of our postings are about reading and dyslexia. What about other specific learning disabilities - in math, writing, non verbal, etc., etc.? Does anyone have a program that specifically deals with another aspect of LD as the primary focus? Rochelle Kenyon Moderator, NIFL-Learning Disabilities Discussion List _RKenyon721@AOL.com_ (mailto:RKenyon721@AOL.com) ----------------- Forwarded Message: Subj:[NIFL-LD:4710] Weaving silver bullets ... Date:4/14/2005 4:03:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time From:SUJones@parkland.edu Reply-to:nifl-ld@nifl.gov To:nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov Sent from the Internet (Details) Almost all of my students with LDs in the middle/high school setting knew their letter sounds reasonably well, though y & q sometimes had slipped by them, which is why I was distressed by that little snippet from the research that said that since a low percentage of adolescents had *no* letter-sound knowledge, orthography, word recognition & phonics were not included in developmental reading. However, my little program included, from day one, a whole lot of conversation about the how and why of what we were doing. Student ownership of the process was explicitly incorporated into every step; students at least had to have some idea why we were doing things this way, not just because "this is good for you, it will work, I promise." (For starters, of them had heard that line before!) The developmental education research is saturated with the importance of the ownership part of success, and the importance of students' forming of social groups that develop successful learning habits. I tend to be a linear, do-you-have-the-skills thinker, which is okay since my job is to help 'em get the skills. However, I can't help but notice that my success stories do, it would seem, come here as much to connect with their friends (which they made here) as to learn the math. My setting is a little different than most of yours, but do you notice the same thing? I'm wondering, too, if there's something about math that makes it easier to bond (in mutual aggravation), and that maybe that's one reason I don't get as many people looking for help with reading. It's more likely, I think, that a: it's socially okay to "need help" in math, but if you need help in reading, you must be "stupid," and b: you have lots and lots of problems for homework, instead of "write a summary." Susan Jones Academic Development Specialist Academic Development Center Parkland College Champaign, IL 61821 sujones@parkland.edu Webmastress, http://www.resourceroom.net >>> mcarro@lmi.net 4/14/2005 1:10:24 PM >>> John, I agree that the synthetic piece is essential. In OG methods we DO start with phonemic awareness and the synthetic piece (blending), before the analytic ( decoding). We do it always together.....synthesize/ analyze. Your description of "synthetic phonics" sounds exactly like what we do.....to start! I also agree that too many early reading curricula leave this out or do not emphasize it, or, start with the analytic piece, thus the failure of many readers. I also agree that we do not START with syllable types and morphology. That comes later in the continuum. Blending sounds sequentially to form spoken words, and letters to form written words IS the fundamental "structure of language" , but there are many levels of "structure of language". EG. sounds form syllables, syllables combine to make words, words combine into phrases, phrases into sentences, sentences into paragraphs, paragraphs into discourse! And everything goes together in an "orderly" manner! The audience of this list is comprised of professionals working at all of these levels. Most work with adults who need "repair" at one or more of these levels to become literate. I don't think any of us are in disagreement as much as we might not be "on the same page". Sometimes we get tunnel vision! I don't doubt that your program is successful....from the example I saw on the list it looks quite sound! Congratulations! Maureen On Apr 14, 2005, at 2:52 AM, John Nissen wrote: Hello Maureen, I think your analysis of failure is correct. That would explain the success shown in the Clackmannenshire study as compared to "conventional phonics" taught in other schools, where both the "whole word recognition" route and the "phonic decoding" route are tackled from the start. Research suggests that both routes are employed by experienced readers in parallel. However, in learning to read, starting with some whole words to recognise only confuses the learner. For example, the National Curriculum in UK contains lists of words to be recognised at various stages of reading, and many of the words for the first stage have irregular spellings (was, would, have etc.). Essential to the Clackmannanshire approach was a quick start on phonics, starting with regular spellings, and learning to read within two terms as compared to two years expected in the National Literacy Strategy. Quick success must be a great motivator. And, as the learner's decoding speeds up, whole word recognition kicks in quite naturally. However, Maureen, I am not sure of the importance of bringing in the structure of the language at an early stage. When you learn an instrument, or learn to read music, you don't start with symphonies! Cheers, John P.S. concerning the "two routes": the research suggests that, after you look at a word, the brain has recognition processes working in parallel, and accepts the output from the path that first produces sufficient semantic connection to move onto the next word. One of the tests of this theory is to measure the disruption to reading when the text contains words that sound rite but are spelt wrong and mean something else. Another test is to measure the disruption from including words that are the right shape but mronq spelling. Fascinating stuff. I'm sorry I don't have any references. I read about this research a few years ago now, under neurolinguistics I think. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Maureen Carro" <mcarro@lmi.net> > To: "Multiple recipients of list" <nifl-ld@literacy.nifl.gov> > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:47 PM > Subject: [NIFL-LD:4697] Re: Synthetic phonics a silver bullet? What we cannot forget is that if a student cannot rapidly decode words, they cannot comprehend what they are reading! If they cannot fluently encode words, they cannot write in a way that they will be understood. This is what leads to failure. Students with reading/writing problems need explicit instruction in the structure of language. If they have some information about six syllable types, prefixes, suffixes, and roots, they will have a good start to fishing on their own! Let's not "dis" synthetic phonics! It is a necessary piece which IS typically left out of many early reading curricula. It may be a good place to start with young children, but to truly "read" we need it all. It IS a symphony!
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