Return-Path: <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e960j4906644; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <002201c02f2f$03d2f820$baeeffd1@cbking> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Catherine King" <cbking@flash.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:155] Re: Defining Our Own Racism--Individual X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; Status: O Content-Length: 13269 Lines: 344 Eileen: Thanks for the clarification. Catherine King ----- Original Message ----- From: Eileen Eckert <eileeneckert@hotmail.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 3:52 PM Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:154] Re: Defining Our Own Racism--Individual > Catherine: > For clarification, you are attributing to me words and ideas that were > written by others on the list. I added my comments with asterisks before and > after and left the original messages as reference. My point is that whatever > the differences in their histories in Europe, once European immigrants have > assimilated, they have access to the same privileges of other white > Americans. All white Americans have the opportunity to assimilate into and > therefore benefit from the racist power structure set up to justify and > perpetuate slavery. > > Racism is the initial violence. Prejudices against whites are a response to > racism. Both need to be overcome, through individual and collective > reflection and action, but they are not the same, and only racism has the > institutional power to systematically oppress people of color. > > Eileen > > >From: "Catherine King" <cbking@flash.net> > >Reply-To: nifl-povracelit@nifl.gov > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> > >Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:149] Re: Defining Our Own Racism--Individual > >Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:59:11 -0400 (EDT) > > > >To Ms. Eckert, who writes: > > > >"One last point, you say that 'When White Americans > >begin to identify others as racist they deflect attention > >away from their history as a people.' Since when do all > >white Americans share a common history anymore than > >white Brits or white Europeans? Do my Polish American > >cousins in Chicago share the same histories as the Irish > >Americans, the German Americans, and the Italian > >Americans also living in Chicago? Most white people did > >not have ancestors who benefited from the trade in slaves > >any more than most black people did, although we know > >that both white and black individuals were involved in the > >slave trade, so why should you again pick on white > >Americans only?" > > > >Though there is much truth in what you say above and in > >the rest of your thoughtful note, **all** white Americans, including > >your Polish **American** cousins living in Chicago, do share > >the same general history and "story of our beginnings, as > >"the story of the United States," unless they are not Americans? > > > >Furthermore, black Americans share that same story--with > >the radically different twist of coming to a "free" country with > >an "of the people, etc." Constitution while arguments were going > >on (as a matter of public record) that they weren't even fully human. > >(It was called the "serpent under the table at the signing of the > >Constitution.) The further twist is that the "state's rights" > >advocates in the south were advocating for state's rights mainly > >to keep a way of life that included slavery--a rather odd notion > >of "rights," when you think about it, and fought a war over it. > > > >Though "group bias" is always a possibility in any culture and > >is what is behind being able to kill children of another culture > >with apparent ease, racism by white people in America against > >black people--by mere virtue of their skin color and national heritage-- > >has had its particular historical developments that will not go > >away. Ignoring it, or blaming others for their own racism is > >only using one half-truth to avoid another. > > > >This conversation relates directly to adult education because, > >though we have in K-12 tried our best to obfuscate the arts, > >literature and history in favor of science and math, the original > >impetus for educating our young people was the assumption > >that it takes a generally educated polity to maintain democracy > >and order under general laws in a diverse land. An education > >towards civility is not a far cry from that goal, and the arts, literature, > >and history are where we are placed in a dialogue with the "other." > > > >That civil education comes from having to sit in a classroom and > >dialogue, and explore differences and samenesses with person of > >other groups. Without that education towards understanding others, > >we have a tendency to drift towards a mentality of tribalism-- > >a "mine or none" closed-minded, self-serving, blame everyone-but > >me-attitude, or worse yet, even make assumptions that "because > >someone is .........then, they must be ......... Either way, and even if > >our assumptions may be true on occasion, this kind of thinking > >still closes down the questioning process that would allow us into > >an area of understanding individual others. > > > >Unfortunately, those who come for an education are often the ones > >who are the victims of those who do not have one and are of the > >mind set that they don't need one, including math and science > >majors--This I have experienced again and again. > > > >Best to all, > >Catherine King > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Eileen Eckert <eileeneckert@hotmail.com> > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> > >Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:21 AM > >Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:148] Re: Defining Our Own Racism--Individual > > > > > > > I couldn't resist adding my two cents to the discussion. I've marked my > > > comments with ** before and after. How can we bring these discussions > >into > > > the literacy classroom or tutoring session? > > > > > > >Karen, I agree with you. As an African American, my intent is not > >allow > > > >the dominant culture to obscure my vision. Consider the situation > >where > >a > > > >husband is verbally abusive to his wife and this issue is brought > >before > > > >the marriage counselor by the wife. During an exchange between the > >husband > > > >and the wife, the husband attempts to deflect attention off of himself > >by > > > >pointing out at every opportunity anything that he can construe as > >verbally > > > >abusive by his wife. When White Americans begin to identify others as > > > >racist they deflect attention away from their history as a people. > > > >African Americans accuse other people of being racist and deny that > >they > > > >are equally so the same reasoning applies? > > > > > > **Anyone who deflects attention from his or her own attitudes and > >behavior > > > by accusing someone else of engaging in the same behavior is resisting > > > self-awareness. Rejecting the opportunity to examine and transform your > >own > > > behavior and instead accusing others is not conducive to change and does > > > nothing to overcome animosity. But the original situation remains: > >African > > > Americans are not in a position to institutionalize their prejudices > >against > > > white people. Animosity of an African American toward whites based on > >race > > > is a learned response to racism.** > > > > > > You argue that a man who is abusive will look for opportunities to show > >that > > > his partner is equally abusive. In doing this he will absolve himself > >from > > > any guilt or remorse over his own behaviour and will place the blame on > >her > > > - so he no longer appears to be the antagonist but the victim defending > > > himself against an aggressive wife. Right? Very clever! > > > > > > Let us take this illustration one step further. Would you suggest that > >an > > > African American who is racist would similarly look for opportunities to > > > prove that non African Americans are racist in order to justify his/her > >own > > > antagonism towards white people? In fact might such a person not argue > >that > > > it is impossible for an African American to be racist? In denying one's > >own > > > ability to be racist one automatically absolves oneself of any blame or > > > guilt for racist thoughts or deeds - you cannot be guilty of something > >you > > > are incapable of doing. By deflecting attention from oneself, > > > by pointing out at every opportunity that white people are racist, is > >it > > > possible (following the reasoning above) to argue that African American > > > 'husbands' are merely shifting blame because they want to ignore their > >own > > > histories? > > > > > > **It is possible for an African American to look for instances of racism > >to > > > support his or her contention that whites are all racist. In doing so, > >he > >or > > > she might be denying personal prejudice. But again, there is a > >difference > > > between personal history/individual attitude and societal > > > history/institutional racism.** > > > > > > It seems to me that to focus so much on other people's abuse of power is > >to > > > ignore that there may be other explanations. This isn't to deny that > >racism > > > exists and that many white people are racist, but to argue that only > >white > > > people can be racist ignores the fact that black people around the world > >are > > > also in positions of power and some do use that power in ways which > > > prejudice other groups who may be white or may be black. This is not to > >say > > > that 'two wrongs makes a right' but we have only to look at the > >expulsions > > > of white Africans in Zimbabwe in recent months from the farms > > > their families have tended for perhaps a hundred years or more to see > >this > > > occurring. > > > > > > **How did that land come to belong to the white people? Who tended that > >land > > > before colonization? Your statement, without context, vastly > >oversimplifies > > > the situation.** > > > > > > One last point, you say that "When White Americans begin to identify > >others > > > as racist they deflect attention away from their history as a people." > > > Since when do all white Americans share a common history anymore than > >white > > > Brits or white Europeans? Do my Polish American cousins in Chicago share > >the > > > same histories as the Irish Americans, the German Americans, and the > >Italian > > > Americans also living in Chicago? Most white people did not have > >ancestors > > > who benefited from the trade in slaves any more than most black people > >did, > > > although we know that both white and black individuals > > > were involved in the slave trade, so why should you again pick on white > > > Americans only? > > > > > > **Most white people's ancestors did not trade in slaves. However, most > >white > > > people's ancestors, and most white people in the U.S. today, benefit > >from > > > the unequal power structure of the racist system that was set up to > >justify > > > and support slavery. My Irish, Ukrainian, German, and Belgian ancestors > >did > > > not share a common history in Europe or in their experience of America, > >but > > > once they were here, they could assimilate as "Americans" with no ethnic > > > qualifiers within a few generations and by doing so gain access to the > > > privileges of other white Americans. That option has been much less > > > available to people of color.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: RMALCUS@aol.com > > > >Reply-To: nifl-povracelit@nifl.gov > > > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> > > > >Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:147] Re: Defining Our Own Racism--Individual > > > >Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:01:33 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > > > >Sue, you know I have been feeling like I was in a class where the > >topics > > > >are so interesting that I find myself thinking about them all the time. > >I > > > >went to be last night trying to figure out how to better articulate to > > > >White Americans (or Brits) what I understand as racism in contrast to > > > >racial prejudice. > > > > > > > >I find it necessary to make sure that I do not get hemmed into a corner > > > >when discussing issues of race with the dominant culture that I do not > > > >begin to concur > > > >everyone can be a racist. There is an historical perspective and > >perhaps > >a > > > >cultural perspective that come in to play when discussing racism. Who > >did > > > >the enslaving? Who has benefitted from the cultural imperialism that > > > >perpetuated the marginalization of certain groups? Racism has played > >an > > > >important part in maintaining the culture of the White Ameripean > >(Colin, > > > >199?) as the dominant culture. Now there is racial prejudice. Clovis > > > >Semmes (1988?) talks about the efforts taken by African > >American-regardless > > > >of the course--to right the wrongs they have experienced as a result of > > > >cultural hegemony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Tue Jan 16 2001 - 14:47:26 EST