Return-Path: <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h6419EC13485; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <001301c341c8$a30cde20$fd49dc42@f0e9v3> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Ken Taber" <kentaber@inetgenesis.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:1167] Re: Spanish speakers learning to read X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; Status: O Content-Length: 6441 Lines: 136 Andres and Jill: I agree, in theory, that it easier if she already knew how to read in Spanish and maybe if the ultimate goal was to be bilingual in both languages than I would agree with you. I would porbably revise my statements to some extent. I think the first thing to do is to see what kinds of ESOL programs in the San Francisco area is this person is capable of attending? Is Jill Grossman going to be her tutor? Is she bingual? Both our answers to Jill's question haven't answered how she is to proceed in helping out this women. Andres, your theory is correct but are you saying you would have Jill teach this person to read in Spanish before learning to read in English? I haven't read any research on the practice of teaching a person their native language before teaching them a second language. It might just work. Has anybody heard of such a program and its success? I'm open to new ideas and if Jill wants to try to teach this person Spanish and then English, I'd be interested in the results. Ken Taber ESOL Teacher kentaber@inetgenesis.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andres Muro" <AndresM@epcc.edu> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:46 PM Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:1165] Re: Spanish speakers learning to read > Ken wrote: "is it better for her to learn to read in Spanish before learning to read English? No, it is not necessary." > > Ken: > > Nope, the question wasn't if it was possible to become literacy in a second language even if your are not literate in the first. The question was which was easier, or better. > > Answer: It is always easier to become literate in the language that you are verbally fluent in first. Why? Because you have a reference to stand on. Moreover, once literate in a native language, becoming literate in a second language is a lot easier. This process takes less time and is more successful. > > Allow me to explain. Suppose that I am teaching you a new language. However, suppose that you are not literate in English. As a teacher of the second language I will, at some point, teach you an abstract concept such as "verb". > > Since you are already literate in English, you know that the word "verb" usually refers to an action word, or something that can be conjugated according to persons and tenses. So, when I teach you this word in another language you think of action words, or words that can be conjugated. > > Suppose that you are not literate in English, and I try to teach you the word "verb" in Spanish and I tell you to read a paragraph in Spanish and identify and conjugate verbs in the past tense, third person singular. Since, you don't already know what the word means in your native language, you will have a tremendous difficulty mastering it in a second language. It is possible, but very difficult. > > An easier way to understand this is with math. Suppose that you don't know how to solve simple equations in English and I try to teach you how to solve equations in Russian. You will need to master two languages. the language of math, and the second language. However, suppose that you know how to solve equations and you read a book in a different language talking about equations. You will likely understand a lot of it. > > Cummins explains this in the context of children, but I believe that it applies to adults too. You can go from Basic Interpersonal Communication Skills (BICS) in Language 1 (L1) to Cognitive Academic Language Proficiency skills (CALPS) in L1. However, you cannot go from BICS in L1 to CALPS in L2. In other words, you cannot master cognitive skills in a second language until you master basic oral communication skills in the same language. Reading involves cognitive academic skills, that cannot be acquired w/o either mastery of cognitive academic skills in another language, or BICS in that same language. > > Suppose that you have a class with two people that do not speak a word of English. One finished high school. the other didn't go beyond third grade. Tomorrow, you'll introduce them to basic pronouns. The high school graduate will understand what you are saying. the third grade completer will not understand what a pronoun is. > > It would be better for the third grade completer to try to acquire some literacy in her native language and then transition to an ESL program. > > We do this in our program all the time. We offer Spanish GED classes. We may get people with little literacy in Spanish. It may take three to five years for a person with low literacy to get the GED in Spanish. However, once they get it, they can transition to an ESL class and do very well. Those who go into ESL with low native literacy often do very poorly. > > In summary: It is better for a person to master native language literacy before they go into second language literacy. However, it is possible to help a person to get second language literacy without native language literacy, but it is difficult and requires a lot of skills on the part of the teacher, and a lot of dedication on the part of the student. > > Andres > >>> kentaber@inetgenesis.com 07/03/03 03:08PM >>> > Is it better for her to learn to read in Spanish before learning to read > English? > No, it is not necessary. She can learn to read in English even if she > does not how to read in Spanish. Many immigrants come to this country who do > not know how to read in their native language. There our bilingual programs > and English-only programs and those that use a combination of both. If she > has the desire to learn, she is halfway there to learning the English > language. Good Luck, Ken. > Ken Taber > ESOL Teacher > kentaber@inetgenesis.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jill Grossman" <jgrossman@citylimits.org> > To: "Multiple recipients of list" <nifl-povracelit@literacy.nifl.gov> > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 3:47 PM > Subject: [NIFL-POVRACELIT:1160] Re: Spanish speakers learning to read > > > > > > I know of a Mexican woman living in San Francisco whose native language is > > Spanish. She knows very little English, and can't read in either language. > > Is it better for her to learn to read in Spanish before learning to read > > English, or should she focus on learning to both speak and read English, > > which is her ultimate goal? Or is there some combination of the two that > she > > should try? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Jill > > >
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