Return-Path: <nifl-womenlit@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g19NVCu12181; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:31:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:31:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <000601c1b1c1$479a8d00$765a3f92@labor.ak> Errors-To: alcrsb@langate.gsu.edu Reply-To: nifl-womenlit@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-womenlit@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-womenlit@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Amy Iutzi-Mitchell" <amy_iutzi-mitchell@labor.state.ak.us> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-womenlit@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-WOMENLIT:2012] Re: caste X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; Status: O Content-Length: 8064 Lines: 203 I'm another one of those silent list members. However, I read the reference about Ogbu with interest as my husband studied with him at Berkeley and often referred me to Ogbu when I was completing graduate work at the University of Alaska Fairbanks. So, I ran the reference past my chosen life partner who returned these thoughts to me. I decided to share them with all of you. "Andres has it more-or-less right. Ogbu is an educational anthropologist at Berkeley. He came up with the term "caste-like" minorities (he also invented the term "glass ceiling, btw). The fundamental difference between caste and class is that, theoretically, one is born, lives, and dies in one's caste whereas theoretically one can change one's social class. In practice, people do (rarely) change their caste, and people only rarely change their social class. In the U.S., Ogbu distinguishes between voluntary and involuntary minorities. Voluntary minorities are immigrants, and descendants of immigrants, who chose to come to the U.S. (even if they didn't choose to leave their home country, viz., refugees). Involuntary minorities were enveloped by the U.S. against their will. The three classic examples of involuntary minorities in the U.S. are: American Indians (and Alaskan Eskimos and Native Hawaiians) who were invaded; (most) blacks who were brought here in chains, and Chicanos who used to live in New Spain until their homes were "won" in wars with the U.S. Ogbu (a voluntary minority member himself as an Igbo immigrant from Nigeria) has been fascinated for forty years with American Blacks especially, and other American minority groups. He argues that there are three kinds of cultural differences between students' home cultures and the culture of the schools. First are universal cultural differences; nobody comes from homes which are run as schools. Primary cultural differences are practices which happen to be different, but which do not inherently run at cross-purposes with the culture of the school. Now SECONDARY cultural differences, as Ogbu uses the term, are cultural practices that arose specifically out of resistance to hegemony; by their very nature they run counter to the dominating culture. These are the differences that make a difference when it comes to understanding a larger portion (certainly not all) of the statistical differences in scholastic success among ethnic groups, not only in the U.S., but throughout the world." Roy Iutzi-Mitchell -----Original Message----- From: nifl-womenlit@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-womenlit@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of AndresMuro@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 5:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [NIFL-WOMENLIT:2003] Re: caste I am jumping into this discussion late, so I don't know if this applies, however, it appears to be related. John Ogbu, a sociologist, argues that there is a 'cast like' system in the US. According to Ogbu, there are voluntary and involuntary minorities. Involuntary minorities are those that have that status, not by choice, but by circumstances beyond their control, and their status as members of society is devalued by virtue of being part of these minorities. He identifies Blacks and Chicanos as being part of involuntary or 'cast' minorities. He argues that the cultural capital of many Blacks and Chicanos doesn't have same status as the dominant cultural capital of the US. Since they are born in the US they are not choosing to belong to a cultural group that has been devalued before hand. this may lead to resistance to adopting the dominant cultural capital.Voluntary minorities come here by choice. While they must learn a new cultural capital, they do not resist it, since they are choosing to become part of the system. This is an oversimplified summary of Ogbu's research, but it is interesting to discuss. In the context of this listserv, one of the issues could be to discuss this in relationship to women. Are they voluntary minorities, cast minorities, both or neither. Andres In a message dated 2/8/2002 7:15:59 AM Mountain Standard Time, lalumineuse@yahoo.com writes: Andrea, In a nutshell, caste is more of a societal phenomenon, one is born into, which through the ages has become solidified, and unlike in the past, you cannot change. Class is an economic phenomenon, which cuts through caste. You can have rich and poor and middle class folks across all castes. The caste system ghets preserved and perpetuated because when it comes to marriage, people still try and find partners from their own caste. What is interesting is that religious minorities like Sikhs, Muslims, all have similar systems and they too tend to look for the same "subsect" that they belong to (or are born into) to marry and live with. In urban areas, the boundaries between castes are blurry, because of the mingling that takes place due to employment, name changes, living quarters and no segregation of any kind in schools or work. When I lived in India, I saw changes taking place in the little village my father comes from, and when I travelled across the country. Yes, there is still the tendency to find a partner from one's own caste and community. Some of it is linked to ease of adapting to a new family without the added complications of learning a new language, a new culture (oh yes, when one changes a state one changes a culture, and "narthies and southies" don't always hold very flattering opinions about each other.) and religious habits. A couple of references for your reading pleasure: The first looks at the links between social movements and caste, and caste based social movements, of which we have quite a few in India. the second is a study set in a village in Karnataka (a state in South India) where the author (I believe she lives and works in Canada) Vanaja Dhruvarajan did her doctoral research on the women in that village. Sharma, K.L. (1986). Caste, class and social movements. Jaipur : Rawat Publications. Dhruvarajan, V. (1989). Hindu women and the power of ideology. Massachusetts : Bergin and Garvey Publishers, Inc. Cheers Ujwala --- AWilder106@aol.com wrote: > Ujwala, > > Could you give an example of how caste and class are > treated differently? Or > acknowledged to be different categories? This is > all very interesting. > > Andrea __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com andresmuro@aol.com Visit my art webpage at: http://www.geocities.com/andresmuro/artwork.html -----Original Message----- From: nifl-womenlit@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-womenlit@nifl.gov]On Behalf Of AndresMuro@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [NIFL-WOMENLIT:2010] Re: caste Andrea: Of course you are the majority. I am not using the term in its literal term (reference to numbers) but as a sociological construct. A definition of minority is a group that because of physical or cultural characteristics, is treated differently from the dominant group, and this treatment may result in unequal access to things. Hegemony determines which groups are or aren't minorities. So, even though there are more women than men, women as a group may be treated different from the dominant group and may have unequal access to things. Of course, within women, and other groups there are different groups affected differently. This is what I was interested in exploring. For example, black women as a group may be treated different from white women as a group. Also, white women, depending on class, may also be treated differently. For example, bell hooks says that she is a woman, but, in some contexts, color defines her status more than gender. Andres >>> AWilder106@aol.com 02/08/02 08:59AM >>> Neither. We are a majority. I am rather touchy on this point. Andrea In a message dated Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, AWilder106@aol.com writes: > Neither. We are a majority. I am rather touchy on this point. > > Andrea
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