Mary Lynn,

Your argument to push learners forward is a common belief.  I am not 
suggesting to hold learners back, but if we are to prepare them for just 
"passing the test"  we are overlooking the "ASE" responsibility of our job. 
Preparing the learner to possess the expected academic skills of  a high 
school  student and be ready to transition to college level academics is in 
the learners' best interest in respect to time and money.   Community 
College should not have to remediate adult basic skills, and yet they do. If 
the GED were to be more aligned with the tests required to enter community 
college, such as the Accuplacer, the transition would be smoother, but it is 
not.   Preparation for the learners next steps, which includes basic and 
secondary fundamental skills, is the responsibility of  Adult Literacy.

Donna Chambers


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Lynn Simons" <macsimoin at hotmail.com>
To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: [Assessment 1012] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!



Community Colleges test students when they enter and then teach them 
accordingly. It is not our job to paternalistically/maternalistically decide 
what is best for our students beyond what they need to know to be able to 
pass the test. We must not hold them back. Let them get to college or 
training as fast as possible.



----------------------------------------> From: Kgotthardt at comcast.net> To: 
assessment at nifl.gov> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:35:10 -0400> Subject: 
[Assessment 1007] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!>> David, I 
agree that creativity is essential in GED programs, especially if> students 
are planning to go on to college! Students who pass the GED with> minimal 
ability to freely think creatively, explore abstract ideas, and> weigh 
options are usually at a loss in the college classroom. Most colleges> 
require program elements such as "writing across the curriculum." As we> 
know, writing requires abstract thought, the kind adults need to develop.>> 
Even basic college writing classes require understanding and using> 
rhetorical patterns found in the descriptive essay and more. Humanities> 
courses demand students to understand and even implement creative forms,> 
figures of speech, figurative language, and more. For students to truly> 
understand history, they must be able to visualize different time periods.> 
Symbolic thought translates into statistics and math classes in which> 
graphs, numbers and equations are used to communicate ideas. The list goes> 
on.>> Someone here or in another posting made the remark that students in a 
GED> class who are not reading in class are not practicing reading at all. 
If> the instructor is writing on the board, if the students are writing, if 
the> students are taking practice tests, they ARE reading. In terms of more> 
formalized, lengthier readings, students will most likely need to take that> 
home. Yes, this requires a certain amount of discipline that we might not> 
get with GED students. But especially with students who want to pursue> 
higher education after earning the GED, we need to have the time to teach> 
them to think critically.>> Finally, I just now ran across an essay from 
Peter Elbow whom I haven't> studied in a long time but did in my past lives. 
The essay demonstrates how> creativity is used in the college classroom as 
well as what GED students can> expect in college (though perhaps not to this 
extent, depending on the> teacher and the class). 
http://www.ntlf.com/html/lib/bib/writing.htm>> I'm a firm believer in 
extensive transitional services for GED students> planning to attend 
college, and I think it's essential to have> communications between public 
schools and college to make this happen if we> want GED students to succeed. 
Part of these discussions should include> creativity used and expected in 
every academic setting.>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt, ESOL Online 
Instructor> Prince William County Public Schools> Adult Education> P.O. Box 
389> Manassas, VA 20108> work 703-791-8387> fax 
703-791-8889>>>>>> -----Original Message-----> From: 
assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On> Behalf 
Of David J. Rosen> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 10:54 PM> To: The 
Assessment Discussion List> Subject: [Assessment 1005] Re: GED Discussion - 
what you need to know!>>> Assessment colleagues,>> Toni asked what we mean 
by creativity. Good question. I'll give it a> shot.>> Is creativity a means 
to an end -- that is, with creative teaching> approaches will more students 
have more and higher academic skills,> better test scores? Or is creativity 
itself an end -- that is, do we> want students to be both academically 
prepared and creative? Or> both? And where do critical skills fit in?>> I 
would argue, as Marc Tucker does, that we need both high academic> skills 
and creativity, and I would put critical thinking in both> these 
catregories, both as a means and as an end. Our adult secondary> education 
(e.g. GED) programs should provide students with the> opportunity to have 
academic skills that are strong enough to succeed> in college, strong 
critical thinking skills (these may be inseparable> from strong academic 
skills), and the skills of creative problem> solving.>> Since this is the 
assessment list, let me ask what are we measuring> now adult secondary 
education programs?>> • Perhaps academic skills, at least through 
standardized tests> • Are we measuring critical thinking skills, and if so 
how?> • I am not aware that anyone in adult literacy education is measuring> 
creative skills.>> If Marc Tucker is right, we are not paying attention to 
one of the> greatest economic assets, one of the historic strengths of the 
U.S. I> agree with Tucker and believe that the nearly exclusive focus on 
high> stakes basic skills tests for K-12, and the focus on only traditional> 
basic skills for the GED tests disrespects important creative skills> like 
the ability to look at a problem freshly and from different> perspectives, 
the ability to try out and evaluate a range of> solutions, the ability to 
represent an idea with an image, a moving> image, a drawing; a metaphor or 
other figurative language, or> rhetoric; and the ability to understand and 
follow, but instead to> disregard instructions or traditional paths of 
thinking (what we now> often describe as "thinking outside the box").>> Are 
these goals that every GED student has or should have. No. Should> they be? 
Not necessarily. But for students who see the GED or high> school diploma as 
a way out of poverty, as a stepping stone to stable> employment and 
self-sufficiency, as a key to open the door to> successful post-secondary 
learning, these are the skills we should be> teaching and measuring: 
academic skills, including critical thinking> and creativity.>> I invite 
your comments on this.>> David J. Rosen> djrosen at comcast.net>>>> On Oct 26, 
2007, at 3:39 PM, Borge, Toni F wrote:>>> When we are referring to 
creativity do we mean teaching critical>> thinking skills which once our 
students know how to think in a>> critical thinking way they will be 
successful in achieving their>> education and other life goals. However, 
just like K-12 education,>> adult education is captured on the high stakes 
spinning wheel of>> accountability which stifles creativity and teachers 
teach to the>> test.>>>> Toni Borge>>>> BHCC>> Adult Education & Transitions 
Program>>>> Boston, MA>>>>>>>> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:assessment->> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of shirley ledet>> Sent: 
Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:30 PM>> To: The Assessment Discussion List>> 
Subject: [Assessment 1001] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to 
know!>>>>>>>> I agree that creativity is not the enemy of success on 
standardized>> test. We need look no further then those who have been 
successful>> on any type of test. We tend to use terms like natuarally 
gifted,>> just smart, etc. If you speak to these folks they are well>> 
rounded, enjoy reading, mvies, theater, they tend to use terms like>> "I 
don't know, I just know stuff." Researchers have found that>> this may be 
the reason for disparity between ethnicity. I believe>> there is more 
disparity between socio economic background then>> ethnicity. Exposure to 
the arts, banking industry, faculty,>> medicine, legal issues as part of 
your everyday life tends to offer>> more of an advantage when testing then 
someone whose only exposure>> is to go to school and study hard. My students 
participate in a>> quite a few creative projects and those that "get into 
it" tend to>> do better in all subjects. Those that feel it is a waste of 
time>> and they just want to "study for the GED" are generally frustrated>> 
when "all of their hard work does not pay off like they would>> like." 
Creativity also leads to retention; especially those>> activities that have 
to be completed in increments. Let's bring on>> more creativity!>>>> Shirley 
Ledet>>>> GED Instructor>>>> NHC-Carver>>>> djrosen at comcast.net wrote:>>>> 
Colleagues,>>>> I am a proponent of creativity in adult literacy 
education -->> indeed in all education. As Marc Tucker, President of the 
National>> Center for Education and the Economy, has said in a presention>> 
recently to the National Commission on Adult Literacy, http://>> 
www.caalusa.org/video/choices.html , the U.S. education system -->> and he 
includes adult education, cannot be competitive without high>> academic 
standards AND creativity.>>>> But many GED teachers and administrators 
believe that their>> students will not pass the GED unless they focus on 
skills and>> knowledge needed to pass the test, that creativity is a>> 
"distraction" and a time-waster. (Many K-12 teachers,>> administrators or 
policy makers also believe creativity distracts>> from passing high stakes 
tests.) I hate to be the one to raise this>> issue, but it's the key 
question on the minds of many GED teachers>> and administrators, so I invite 
the panelists to address it.>>>> Is creativity a distraction or is it 
essential for success? Why?>>>>>> David J. Rosen>> 
djrosen at comcast.net>>>> -------------- Original 
message ---------------------->> From: "Marie Cora">>> Hi everyone,>>>>>> 
We've had several new subscribers over the past day, and so I>> wanted to>>> 
give a quick reminder where you can get the information on this>>> 
discussion. For the full announcement, information on guests, and>>> 
suggested resources go to:>>>>>> 
http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/>> 
07creativityGED.html>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday - there 
were a couple ->> you can>>> catch up in the archives at:>>> 
http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>> Please post 
your questions and also your own experiences to share>> now!>>>>>> 
Thanks!!>>>>>> Marie Cora>>> Assessment Discussion List 
Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>> 
NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator>>> 
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Marie 
Cora" >> To: >> Subject: [Assessment 942] GED Discussion - what you need to 
know!>> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:43:14 +0000>>>> Hi everyone,>>>>>>>> We’ve 
had several new subscribers over the past day, and so I>> wanted to give a 
quick reminder where you can get the information>> on this discussion. For 
the full announcement, information on>> guests, and suggested resources go 
to:>>>>>>>> 
http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/07creativityGED.html>>>>>>>> 
If you missed the posts from yesterday – there were a couple – you>> can 
catch up in the archives at: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/>> 
assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>>>> Please post your questions and also your 
own experiences to share now!>>>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>> 
Assessment Discussion List Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>> 
marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List 
Moderator>>>> 
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------->> 
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