Words are so tricky, I don't really know what either of you two (Mary  
Lynn) are talking about--if I were to observe your classes, what would  
I see???
would there be a real difference?
Thanks.

Andrea
On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:13 AM, Carver, Mary-Lynn wrote:


> Wow, I must say I disagree with Mary Lynn Simons. Many ABE/GEDstudents  

> come in just wanting to pass the test, but have no critical thinking  

> or transitional college skills. If we don't help them understand and  

> acquire some of those skills, they will not be able to succeed with  

> the transition to higher education. If not us, who? I think it is one  

> of the first duties of any teacher to give students what they need to  

> succeed in their class and beyond.  I don't feel it is  

> paternal/maternalistic to help them set a course to success.

>

> Thanks,

> Mary Lynn Carver

> ABE/GED Instructor

> College of Lake County

> Building 4, Office 405

> 19351 W. Washington Street

> Grayslake, IL  60031

> Phone:847/543-2677

> mlcarver at clcillinois.edu

> Fax: 847/543-7580

>

> "Blessed are they who laugh at themselves, for they shall be  

> constantly amused" -- Unknown

>

> We now accept the fact that learning is a lifelong process of keeping  

> abreast of change. And the most pressing task is to teach people how  

> to learn. --Peter F. Drucker

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of  

> assessment-request at nifl.gov

> Sent: Sun 10/28/2007 8:23 AM

> To: assessment at nifl.gov

> Subject: Assessment Digest, Vol 25, Issue 33

>

>

>

> Send Assessment mailing list submissions to

>         assessment at nifl.gov

>

> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

>         http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

> than "Re: Contents of Assessment digest..."

>

>

> Today's Topics:

>

>    1. [Assessment 1011]  Media Library of Teaching Skills

>       (David J. Rosen)

>    2. [Assessment 1012] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!

>       (Mary Lynn Simons)

>    3. [Assessment 1013] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!

>       (Andrea Wilder)

>    4. [Assessment 1014] Re: Media Library of Teaching Skills

>       (David J. Rosen)

>    5. [Assessment 1015]  GED preparation and creativity (David J.  

> Rosen)

>    6. [Assessment 1016] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!

>       (Donna Chambers)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:17:10 -0400

> From: David J. Rosen <djrosen at comcast.net>

> Subject: [Assessment 1011]  Media Library of Teaching Skills

> To: The Technology and Literacy Discussion List <technology at nifl.gov>,

>         The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List

>         <professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>,     The Assessment  

> Discussion List

>         <assessment at nifl.gov>,  The Adult English Language Learners  

> Discussion

>         List    <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <1BB3689A-BB68-4D01-9B2E-5FCFC26EC3B9 at comcast.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;

>         format=flowed

>

> Colleagues,

>

> The Media Library of Teaching Skills (MLoTS) project, a free Web-

> based library of short digital videos of adult education classrooms

> and tutorials, now has three MLoTS-created reading and numeracy

> videos and over 30 other videos, including those from:

>

> ? NCAL/ILI Professional Development Kit  (ESOL and basic literacy

> tutoring)

> ? NCAL/ILI Captured Wisdom (integrating technology),

> ? OTAN  (integrating technology)

>    and

> ? CLESE (an informal assessment to capture what low-literate ESOL

> learners can and cannot do with literacy)

>

> I hope you will take a look.  If you know of other good classroom or

> tutoring short videos in digital form, please let me know.  I am

> hoping that MLoTS will become a large, "one-stop" collection for

> adult literacy education classroom videos.

>

> David J. Rosen

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 01:01:15 +0000

> From: Mary Lynn Simons <macsimoin at hotmail.com>

> Subject: [Assessment 1012] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!

> To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <BAY115-W323773268663F2FF780147BF900 at phx.gbl>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

>

>

> Community Colleges test students when they enter and then teach them  

> accordingly. It is not our job to paternalistically/maternalistically  

> decide what is best for our students beyond what they need to know to  

> be able to pass the test. We must not hold them back. Let them get to  

> college or training as fast as possible.

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------> From:  

> Kgotthardt at comcast.net> To: assessment at nifl.gov> Date: Sat, 27 Oct  

> 2007 09:35:10 -0400> Subject: [Assessment 1007] Re: GED Discussion -  

> what you need to know!>> David, I agree that creativity is essential  

> in GED programs, especially if> students are planning to go on to  

> college! Students who pass the GED with> minimal ability to freely  

> think creatively, explore abstract ideas, and> weigh options are  

> usually at a loss in the college classroom. Most colleges> require  

> program elements such as "writing across the curriculum." As we> know,  

> writing requires abstract thought, the kind adults need to develop.>>  

> Even basic college writing classes require understanding and using>  

> rhetorical patterns found in the descriptive essay and more.  

> Humanities> courses demand students to understand and even implement  

> creative forms,> figures of speech, figurative language, and more. For  

> students to truly> understand history, they must be able to vi

>  sualize different time periods.> Symbolic thought translates into  

> statistics and math classes in which> graphs, numbers and equations  

> are used to communicate ideas. The list goes> on.>> Someone here or in  

> another posting made the remark that students in a GED> class who are  

> not reading in class are not practicing reading at all. If> the  

> instructor is writing on the board, if the students are writing, if  

> the> students are taking practice tests, they ARE reading. In terms of  

> more> formalized, lengthier readings, students will most likely need  

> to take that> home. Yes, this requires a certain amount of discipline  

> that we might not> get with GED students. But especially with students  

> who want to pursue> higher education after earning the GED, we need to  

> have the time to teach> them to think critically.>> Finally, I just  

> now ran across an essay from Peter Elbow whom I haven't> studied in a  

> long time but did in my past lives. The essay demonstrates how>  

> creativity is used in the co

>  llege classroom as well as what GED students can> expect in college  

> (though perhaps not to this extent, depending on the> teacher and the  

> class). http://www.ntlf.com/html/lib/bib/writing.htm>> I'm a firm  

> believer in extensive transitional services for GED students> planning  

> to attend college, and I think it's essential to have> communications  

> between public schools and college to make this happen if we> want GED  

> students to succeed. Part of these discussions should include>  

> creativity used and expected in every academic setting.>>> Katherine  

> Mercurio Gotthardt, ESOL Online Instructor> Prince William County  

> Public Schools> Adult Education> P.O. Box 389> Manassas, VA 20108>  

> work 703-791-8387> fax 703-791-8889>>>>>> -----Original Message----->  

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov  

> [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On> Behalf Of David J. Rosen>  

> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 10:54 PM> To: The Assessment Discussion  

> List> Subject: [Assessment 1005] Re: GED Discussion - what you need

>   to know!>>> Assessment colleagues,>> Toni asked what we mean by  

> creativity. Good question. I'll give it a> shot.>> Is creativity a  

> means to an end -- that is, with creative teaching> approaches will  

> more students have more and higher academic skills,> better test  

> scores? Or is creativity itself an end -- that is, do we> want  

> students to be both academically prepared and creative? Or> both? And  

> where do critical skills fit in?>> I would argue, as Marc Tucker does,  

> that we need both high academic> skills and creativity, and I would  

> put critical thinking in both> these catregories, both as a means and  

> as an end. Our adult secondary> education (e.g. GED) programs should  

> provide students with the> opportunity to have academic skills that  

> are strong enough to succeed> in college, strong critical thinking  

> skills (these may be inseparable> from strong academic skills), and  

> the skills of creative problem> solving.>> Since this is the  

> assessment list, let me ask what are we measuring

>> now adult secondary education programs?>> ? Perhaps academic skills,  

>> at least through standardized tests> ? Are we measuring critical  

>> thinking skills, and if so how?> ? I am not aware that anyone in  

>> adult literacy education is measuring> creative skills.>> If Marc  

>> Tucker is right, we are not paying attention to one of the> greatest  

>> economic assets, one of the historic strengths of the U.S. I> agree  

>> with Tucker and believe that the nearly exclusive focus on high>  

>> stakes basic skills tests for K-12, and the focus on only  

>> traditional> basic skills for the GED tests disrespects important  

>> creative skills> like the ability to look at a problem freshly and  

>> from different> perspectives, the ability to try out and evaluate a  

>> range of> solutions, the ability to represent an idea with an image,  

>> a moving> image, a drawing; a metaphor or other figurative language,  

>> or> rhetoric; and the ability to understand and follow, but instead  

>> to> disregard instructions or traditional paths of thin

>  king (what we now> often describe as "thinking outside the box").>>  

> Are these goals that every GED student has or should have. No. Should>  

> they be? Not necessarily. But for students who see the GED or high>  

> school diploma as a way out of poverty, as a stepping stone to stable>  

> employment and self-sufficiency, as a key to open the door to>  

> successful post-secondary learning, these are the skills we should be>  

> teaching and measuring: academic skills, including critical thinking>  

> and creativity.>> I invite your comments on this.>> David J. Rosen>  

> djrosen at comcast.net>>>> On Oct 26, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Borge, Toni F  

> wrote:>>> When we are referring to creativity do we mean teaching  

> critical>> thinking skills which once our students know how to think  

> in a>> critical thinking way they will be successful in achieving  

> their>> education and other life goals. However, just like K-12  

> education,>> adult education is captured on the high stakes spinning  

> wheel of>> accountability which stifle

>  s creativity and teachers teach to the>> test.>>>> Toni Borge>>>>  

> BHCC>> Adult Education & Transitions Program>>>> Boston, MA>>>>>>>>  

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment->>  

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of shirley ledet>> Sent: Thursday, October  

> 25, 2007 4:30 PM>> To: The Assessment Discussion List>> Subject:  

> [Assessment 1001] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!>>>>>>>>  

> I agree that creativity is not the enemy of success on standardized>>  

> test. We need look no further then those who have been successful>> on  

> any type of test. We tend to use terms like natuarally gifted,>> just  

> smart, etc. If you speak to these folks they are well>> rounded, enjoy  

> reading, mvies, theater, they tend to use terms like>> "I don't know,  

> I just know stuff." Researchers have found that>> this may be the  

> reason for disparity between ethnicity. I believe>> there is more  

> disparity between socio economic background then>> ethnicity. Exposure  

> to the arts, banking industry, faculty

>  ,>> medicine, legal issues as part of your everyday life tends to  

> offer>> more of an advantage when testing then someone whose only  

> exposure>> is to go to school and study hard. My students participate  

> in a>> quite a few creative projects and those that "get into it" tend  

> to>> do better in all subjects. Those that feel it is a waste of  

> time>> and they just want to "study for the GED" are generally  

> frustrated>> when "all of their hard work does not pay off like they  

> would>> like." Creativity also leads to retention; especially those>>  

> activities that have to be completed in increments. Let's bring on>>  

> more creativity!>>>> Shirley Ledet>>>> GED Instructor>>>>  

> NHC-Carver>>>> djrosen at comcast.net wrote:>>>> Colleagues,>>>> I am a  

> proponent of creativity in adult literacy education -->> indeed in all  

> education. As Marc Tucker, President of the National>> Center for  

> Education and the Economy, has said in a presention>> recently to the  

> National Commission on Adult Literacy, http:// <http:///>

>>> www.caalusa.org/video/choices.html , the U.S. education system -->>  

>>> and he includes adult education, cannot be competitive without  

>>> high>> academic standards AND creativity.>>>> But many GED teachers  

>>> and administrators believe that their>> students will not pass the  

>>> GED unless they focus on skills and>> knowledge needed to pass the  

>>> test, that creativity is a>> "distraction" and a time-waster. (Many  

>>> K-12 teachers,>> administrators or policy makers also believe  

>>> creativity distracts>> from passing high stakes tests.) I hate to be  

>>> the one to raise this>> issue, but it's the key question on the  

>>> minds of many GED teachers>> and administrators, so I invite the  

>>> panelists to address it.>>>> Is creativity a distraction or is it  

>>> essential for success? Why?>>>>>> David J. Rosen>>  

>>> djrosen at comcast.net>>>> -------------- Original message  

>>> ---------------------->> From: "Marie Cora">>> Hi everyone,>>>>>>  

>>> We've had several new subscribers over the past day, and so I>>  

>>> wanted to>>> give a qu

>  ick reminder where you can get the information on this>>> discussion.  

> For the full announcement, information on guests, and>>> suggested  

> resources go to:>>>>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/>>  

> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday -  

> there were a couple ->> you can>>> catch up in the archives at:>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>> Please  

> post your questions and also your own experiences to share>>  

> now!>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>> Marie Cora>>> Assessment Discussion List  

> Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>  

> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List  

> Moderator>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From:  

> "Marie Cora" >> To: >> Subject: [Assessment 942] GED Discussion - what  

> you need to know!>> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:43:14 +0000>>>> Hi  

> everyone,>>>>>>>> We?ve had several new subscribers over the past day,  

> and so I>> wanted to give a quick reminder where you

>  can get the information>> on this discussion. For the full  

> announcement, information on>> guests, and suggested resources go  

> to:>>>>>>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/ 

> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday ?  

> there were a couple ? you>> can catch up in the archives at:  

> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/>> assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>>>>  

> Please post your questions and also your own experiences to share  

> now!>>>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>> Assessment Discussion  

> List Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>>  

> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List  

> Moderator>>>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>  

> ------------------------------->> National Institute for Literacy>>  

> Assessment mailing list>> Assessment at nifl.gov>> To unsubscribe or  

> change your subscription settings, please go to>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>> Email delivered to  

> djrosen at comcast.net>> ------

>  ------------------------->> National Institute for Literacy>>  

> Assessment mailing list>> Assessment at nifl.gov>> To unsubscribe or  

> change your subscription settings, please go to>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>> Email delivered to  

> msledet at yahoo.com>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------->> National  

> Institute for Literacy>> Assessment mailing list>>  

> Assessment at nifl.gov>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription  

> settings, please go to>>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>> Email delivered to  

> djrosen at comcast.net>>>>>> -------------------------------> National  

> Institute for Literacy> Assessment mailing list> Assessment at nifl.gov>  

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to>  

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment> Email delivered to  

> kgotthardt at comcast.net>> -------------------------------> National  

> Institute for Literacy> Assessment mailing list> Assessment at nifl.gov>  

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings

>  , please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment> Email  

> delivered to macsimoin at hotmail.com

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?.  

> Stop by today.

> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html? 

> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:24:28 -0400

> From: Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>

> Subject: [Assessment 1013] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!

> To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <9e32f2dbe2ba96b51be97f5819a91d2c at comcast.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;

>         format=flowed

>

> Hi Mary Lynn--

>

> One of my mantras for students, no matter  the age, has been:  "Don't

> waste their time."  Is this what you are getting at?

>

> Andrea

>

> On Oct 27, 2007, at 9:01 PM, Mary Lynn Simons wrote:

>

>>

>> Community Colleges test students when they enter and then teach them

>> accordingly. It is not our job to paternalistically/maternalistically

>> decide what is best for our students beyond what they need to know to

>> be able to pass the test. We must not hold them back. Let them get to

>> college or training as fast as possible.

>>

>>

>>

>> ----------------------------------------> From:

>> Kgotthardt at comcast.net> To: assessment at nifl.gov> Date: Sat, 27 Oct

>> 2007 09:35:10 -0400> Subject: [Assessment 1007] Re: GED Discussion -

>> what you need to know!>> David, I agree that creativity is essential

>> in GED programs, especially if> students are planning to go on to

>> college! Students who pass the GED with> minimal ability to freely

>> think creatively, explore abstract ideas, and> weigh options are

>> usually at a loss in the college classroom. Most colleges> require

>> program elements such as "writing across the curriculum." As we> know,

>> writing requires abstract thought, the kind adults need to develop.>>

>> Even basic college writing classes require understanding and using>

>> rhetorical patterns found in the descriptive essay and more.

>> Humanities> courses demand students to understand and even implement

>> creative forms,> figures of speech, figurative language, and more. For

>> students to truly> understand history, they must be able to visualize

>> different time periods.> Symbolic thought translates into statistics

>> and math classes in which> graphs, numbers and equations are used to

>> communicate ideas. The list goes> on.>> Someone here or in another

>> posting made the remark that students in a GED> class who are not

>> reading in class are not practicing reading at all. If> the instructor

>> is writing on the board, if the students are writing, if the> students

>> are taking practice tests, they ARE reading. In terms of more>

>> formalized, lengthier readings, students will most likely need to take

>> that> home. Yes, this requires a certain amount of discipline that we

>> might not> get with GED students. But especially with students who

>> want to pursue> higher education after earning the GED, we need to

>> have the time to teach> them to think critically.>> Finally, I just

>> now ran across an essay from Peter Elbow whom I haven't> studied in a

>> long time but did in my past lives. The essay demonstrates how>

>> creativity is used in the college classroom as well as what GED

>> students can> expect in college (though perhaps not to this extent,

>> depending on the> teacher and the class).

>> http://www.ntlf.com/html/lib/bib/writing.htm>> I'm a firm believer in

>> extensive transitional services for GED students> planning to attend

>> college, and I think it's essential to have> communications between

>> public schools and college to make this happen if we> want GED

>> students to succeed. Part of these discussions should include>

>> creativity used and expected in every academic setting.>>> Katherine

>> Mercurio Gotthardt, ESOL Online Instructor> Prince William County

>> Public Schools> Adult Education> P.O. Box 389> Manassas, VA 20108>

>> work 703-791-8387> fax 703-791-8889>>>>>> -----Original Message----->

>> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On> Behalf Of David J. Rosen>

>> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 10:54 PM> To: The Assessment Discussion

>> List> Subject: [Assessment 1005] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to

>> know!>>> Assessment colleagues,>> Toni asked what we mean by

>> creativity. Good question. I'll give it a> shot.>> Is creativity a

>> means to an end -- that is, with creative teaching> approaches will

>> more students have more and higher academic skills,> better test

>> scores? Or is creativity itself an end -- that is, do we> want

>> students to be both academically prepared and creative? Or> both? And

>> where do critical skills fit in?>> I would argue, as Marc Tucker does,

>> that we need both high academic> skills and creativity, and I would

>> put critical thinking in both> these catregories, both as a means and

>> as an end. Our adult secondary> education (e.g. GED) programs should

>> provide students with the> opportunity to have academic skills that

>> are strong enough to succeed> in college, strong critical thinking

>> skills (these may be inseparable> from strong academic skills), and

>> the skills of creative problem> solving.>> Since this is the

>> assessment list, let me ask what are we measuring> now adult secondary

>> education programs?>> ? Perhaps academic skills, at least through

>> standardized tests> ? Are we measuring critical thinking skills, and

>> if so how?> ? I am not aware that anyone in adult literacy education

>> is measuring> creative skills.>> If Marc Tucker is right, we are not

>> paying attention to one of the> greatest economic assets, one of the

>> historic strengths of the U.S. I> agree with Tucker and believe that

>> the nearly exclusive focus on high> stakes basic skills tests for

>> K-12, and the focus on only traditional> basic skills for the GED

>> tests disrespects important creative skills> like the ability to look

>> at a problem freshly and from different> perspectives, the ability to

>> try out and evaluate a range of> solutions, the ability to represent

>> an idea with an image, a moving> image, a drawing; a metaphor or other

>> figurative language, or> rhetoric; and the ability to understand and

>> follow, but instead to> disregard instructions or traditional paths of

>> thinking (what we now> often describe as "thinking outside the

>> box").>> Are these goals that every GED student has or should have.

>> No. Should> they be? Not necessarily. But for students who see the GED

>> or high> school diploma as a way out of poverty, as a stepping stone

>> to stable> employment and self-sufficiency, as a key to open the door

>> to> successful post-secondary learning, these are the skills we should

>> be> teaching and measuring: academic skills, including critical

>> thinking> and creativity.>> I invite your comments on this.>> David J.

>> Rosen> djrosen at comcast.net>>>> On Oct 26, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Borge,

>> Toni F wrote:>>> When we are referring to creativity do we mean

>> teaching critical>> thinking skills which once our students know how

>> to think in a>> critical thinking way they will be successful in

>> achieving their>> education and other life goals. However, just like

>> K-12 education,>> adult education is captured on the high stakes

>> spinning wheel of>> accountability which stifles creativity and

>> teachers teach to the>> test.>>>> Toni Borge>>>> BHCC>> Adult

>> Education & Transitions Program>>>> Boston, MA>>>>>>>> From:

>> assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment->> bounces at nifl.gov] On

>> Behalf Of shirley ledet>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:30 PM>>

>> To: The Assessment Discussion List>> Subject: [Assessment 1001] Re:

>> GED Discussion - what you need to know!>>>>>>>> I agree that

>> creativity is not the enemy of success on standardized>> test. We need

>> look no further then those who have been successful>> on any type of

>> test. We tend to use terms like natuarally gifted,>> just smart, etc.

>> If you speak to these folks they are well>> rounded, enjoy reading,

>> mvies, theater, they tend to use terms like>> "I don't know, I just

>> know stuff." Researchers have found that>> this may be the reason for

>> disparity between ethnicity. I believe>> there is more disparity

>> between socio economic background then>> ethnicity. Exposure to the

>> arts, banking industry, faculty,>> medicine, legal issues as part of

>> your everyday life tends to offer>> more of an advantage when testing

>> then someone whose only exposure>> is to go to school and study hard.

>> My students participate in a>> quite a few creative projects and those

>> that "get into it" tend to>> do better in all subjects. Those that

>> feel it is a waste of time>> and they just want to "study for the GED"

>> are generally frustrated>> when "all of their hard work does not pay

>> off like they would>> like." Creativity also leads to retention;

>> especially those>> activities that have to be completed in increments.

>> Let's bring on>> more creativity!>>>> Shirley Ledet>>>> GED

>> Instructor>>>> NHC-Carver>>>> djrosen at comcast.net wrote:>>>>

>> Colleagues,>>>> I am a proponent of creativity in adult literacy

>> education -->> indeed in all education. As Marc Tucker, President of

>> the National>> Center for Education and the Economy, has said in a

>> presention>> recently to the National Commission on Adult Literacy,

>> http:// <http:///> >> www.caalusa.org/video/choices.html , the U.S.  

>> education

>> system -->> and he includes adult education, cannot be competitive

>> without high>> academic standards AND creativity.>>>> But many GED

>> teachers and administrators believe that their>> students will not

>> pass the GED unless they focus on skills and>> knowledge needed to

>> pass the test, that creativity is a>> "distraction" and a time-waster.

>> (Many K-12 teachers,>> administrators or policy makers also believe

>> creativity distracts>> from passing high stakes tests.) I hate to be

>> the one to raise this>> issue, but it's the key question on the minds

>> of many GED teachers>> and administrators, so I invite the panelists

>> to address it.>>>> Is creativity a distraction or is it essential for

>> success? Why?>>>>>> David J. Rosen>> djrosen at comcast.net>>>>

>> -------------- Original message ---------------------->> From: "Marie

>> Cora">>> Hi everyone,>>>>>> We've had several new subscribers over the

>> past day, and so I>> wanted to>>> give a quick reminder where you can

>> get the information on this>>> discussion. For the full announcement,

>> information on guests, and>>> suggested resources go to:>>>>>>

>> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/>>

>> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday -

>> there were a couple ->> you can>>> catch up in the archives at:>>>

>> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>> Please

>> post your questions and also your own experiences to share>>

>> now!>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>> Marie Cora>>> Assessment Discussion List

>> Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>

>> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List

>> Moderator>>>

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From:

>> "Marie Cora" >> To: >> Subject: [Assessment 942] GED Discussion - what

>> you need to know!>> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:43:14 +0000>>>> Hi

>> everyone,>>>>>>>> We?ve had several new subscribers over the past day,

>> and so I>> wanted to give a quick reminder where you can get the

>> information>> on this discussion. For the full announcement,

>> information on>> guests, and suggested resources go to:>>>>>>>>

>> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/

>> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday ?

>> there were a couple ? you>> can catch up in the archives at:

>> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/>> assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>>>>

>> Please post your questions and also your own experiences to share

>> now!>>>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>> Assessment Discussion

>> List Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>>

>> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List

>> Moderator>>>>

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> ------------------------------->> National Institute for Literacy>>

>> Assessment mailing list>> Assessment at nifl.gov>> To unsubscribe or

>> change your subscription settings, please go to>>

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>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 4

> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:39:24 -0400

> From: "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net>

> Subject: [Assessment 1014] Re: Media Library of Teaching Skills

> To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <0570AB67-85EE-4F24-AF0B-2E657CB60778 at comcast.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;

>         format=flowed

>

> ....and the Web address for MLoTS is:

>

> http://www.mlots.org <http://www.mlots.org/>

>

> David J. Rosen

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

>

> On Oct 27, 2007, at 7:17 PM, David J. Rosen wrote:

>

>> Colleagues,

>>

>> The Media Library of Teaching Skills (MLoTS) project, a free Web-

>> based library of short digital videos of adult education classrooms

>> and tutorials, now has three MLoTS-created reading and numeracy

>> videos and over 30 other videos, including those from:

>>

>> ? NCAL/ILI Professional Development Kit  (ESOL and basic literacy

>> tutoring)

>> ? NCAL/ILI Captured Wisdom (integrating technology),

>> ? OTAN  (integrating technology)

>>    and

>> ? CLESE (an informal assessment to capture what low-literate ESOL

>> learners can and cannot do with literacy)

>>

>> I hope you will take a look.  If you know of other good classroom or

>> tutoring short videos in digital form, please let me know.  I am

>> hoping that MLoTS will become a large, "one-stop" collection for

>> adult literacy education classroom videos.

>>

>> David J. Rosen

>> djrosen at comcast.net

>>

>>

>>

>> -------------------------------

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>> Assessment mailing list

>> Assessment at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

>> Email delivered to djrosen at comcast.net

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 5

> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:17:38 -0400

> From: "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net>

> Subject: [Assessment 1015]  GED preparation and creativity

> To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <65D538BA-4A9D-42EE-A726-89161F3F5D5C at comcast.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

>

> Hello Andrea,

>

> On Oct 27, 2007, you wrote:

>

>> Has anybody yet in this conversation defined 1. critical reading

>> and 2. creativity?

>

> Here's more on defining creativity.  To begin  with, it's quite

> unlikely that we will agree on a definition.  There are more than 60

> of them in the psychological literature (Taylor, 1988),  and as far

> as I am aware there is no standardized measurement instrument for

> creativity. Some believe it is inherited; some believe it can be

> taught; some believe it can be nurtured or encouraged. I believe that

> some kinds of creativity can be taught or at least nurtured and that

> it involves a set of mental activities often closely aligned with the

> kind of mental activities we call critical thinking. Most of us would

> agree, I believe, that a key element is originality, but we might

> differ in describing the paths to it. And it may look different in

> different contexts, in the sciences, in the arts, in technology, and

> in the creative problem solving of daily living.

>

> In the context in which I raised the issue of creativity, I was

> thinking of the application of new ideas, what some would refer to as

> innovation or ingenuity. It is this applied creativity that I believe

> Marc Tucker had in mind as something that Americans have historically

> valued and excelled at, that has been an element of American economic

> success, and that may be undervalued or lost now in the education

> systems' rush toward performance on high stakes standardized tests.

>

> Are adult literacy education students  (including basic education,

> secondary education and ESOL) capable of  this kind of creativity? If

> so, should we nurture it? I believe they are and that we should.  In

> many GED programs I have seen, it is not nourished, usually not even

> acknowledged in program goals or objectives.  And I have never seen

> it measured. This indicates to me that, as a field, we do not value

> and support student creativity. I agree with Marc Tucker that, if we

> are interested in Americans' global competitiveness that we should

> value creativity, and of course, there are other good reasons to

> nourish creativity.

>

> What do you think about this?

>

>

> * Taylor, C.W. (1988). "Various approaches to and definitions of

> creativity", in ed. Sternberg, R.J.:  The nature of creativity:

> Contemporary psychological perspectives. Cambridge University Press.

>

> David J. Rosen

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 6

> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 07:51:18 -0400

> From: "Donna Chambers" <donnaedp at cox.net>

> Subject: [Assessment 1016] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!

> To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <001f01c81958$da000530$8e5fdd48 at DH89L251>

> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";

>         reply-type=original

>

> Mary Lynn,

>

> Your argument to push learners forward is a common belief.  I am not

> suggesting to hold learners back, but if we are to prepare them for  

> just

> "passing the test"  we are overlooking the "ASE" responsibility of our  

> job.

> Preparing the learner to possess the expected academic skills of  a  

> high

> school  student and be ready to transition to college level academics  

> is in

> the learners' best interest in respect to time and money.   Community

> College should not have to remediate adult basic skills, and yet they  

> do. If

> the GED were to be more aligned with the tests required to enter  

> community

> college, such as the Accuplacer, the transition would be smoother, but  

> it is

> not.   Preparation for the learners next steps, which includes basic  

> and

> secondary fundamental skills, is the responsibility of  Adult Literacy.

>

> Donna Chambers

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Mary Lynn Simons" <macsimoin at hotmail.com>

> To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:01 PM

> Subject: [Assessment 1012] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!

>

>

>

> Community Colleges test students when they enter and then teach them

> accordingly. It is not our job to paternalistically/maternalistically  

> decide

> what is best for our students beyond what they need to know to be able  

> to

> pass the test. We must not hold them back. Let them get to college or

> training as fast as possible.

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------> From:  

> Kgotthardt at comcast.net> To:

> assessment at nifl.gov> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:35:10 -0400> Subject:

> [Assessment 1007] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to know!>> David,  

> I

> agree that creativity is essential in GED programs, especially if>  

> students

> are planning to go on to college! Students who pass the GED with>  

> minimal

> ability to freely think creatively, explore abstract ideas, and> weigh

> options are usually at a loss in the college classroom. Most colleges>

> require program elements such as "writing across the curriculum." As  

> we>

> know, writing requires abstract thought, the kind adults need to  

> develop.>>

> Even basic college writing classes require understanding and using>

> rhetorical patterns found in the descriptive essay and more.  

> Humanities>

> courses demand students to understand and even implement creative  

> forms,>

> figures of speech, figurative language, and more. For students to  

> truly>

> understand history, they must be able to visualize different time  

> periods.>

> Symbolic thought translates into statistics and math classes in which>

> graphs, numbers and equations are used to communicate ideas. The list  

> goes>

> on.>> Someone here or in another posting made the remark that students  

> in a

> GED> class who are not reading in class are not practicing reading at  

> all.

> If> the instructor is writing on the board, if the students are  

> writing, if

> the> students are taking practice tests, they ARE reading. In terms of  

> more>

> formalized, lengthier readings, students will most likely need to take  

> that>

> home. Yes, this requires a certain amount of discipline that we might  

> not>

> get with GED students. But especially with students who want to pursue>

> higher education after earning the GED, we need to have the time to  

> teach>

> them to think critically.>> Finally, I just now ran across an essay  

> from

> Peter Elbow whom I haven't> studied in a long time but did in my past  

> lives.

> The essay demonstrates how> creativity is used in the college  

> classroom as

> well as what GED students can> expect in college (though perhaps not  

> to this

> extent, depending on the> teacher and the class).

> http://www.ntlf.com/html/lib/bib/writing.htm>> I'm a firm believer in

> extensive transitional services for GED students> planning to attend

> college, and I think it's essential to have> communications between  

> public

> schools and college to make this happen if we> want GED students to  

> succeed.

> Part of these discussions should include> creativity used and expected  

> in

> every academic setting.>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt, ESOL Online

> Instructor> Prince William County Public Schools> Adult Education>  

> P.O. Box

> 389> Manassas, VA 20108> work 703-791-8387> fax

> 703-791-8889>>>>>> -----Original Message-----> From:

> assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On>  

> Behalf

> Of David J. Rosen> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 10:54 PM> To: The

> Assessment Discussion List> Subject: [Assessment 1005] Re: GED  

> Discussion -

> what you need to know!>>> Assessment colleagues,>> Toni asked what we  

> mean

> by creativity. Good question. I'll give it a> shot.>> Is creativity a  

> means

> to an end -- that is, with creative teaching> approaches will more  

> students

> have more and higher academic skills,> better test scores? Or is  

> creativity

> itself an end -- that is, do we> want students to be both academically

> prepared and creative? Or> both? And where do critical skills fit  

> in?>> I

> would argue, as Marc Tucker does, that we need both high academic>  

> skills

> and creativity, and I would put critical thinking in both> these

> catregories, both as a means and as an end. Our adult secondary>  

> education

> (e.g. GED) programs should provide students with the> opportunity to  

> have

> academic skills that are strong enough to succeed> in college, strong

> critical thinking skills (these may be inseparable> from strong  

> academic

> skills), and the skills of creative problem> solving.>> Since this is  

> the

> assessment list, let me ask what are we measuring> now adult secondary

> education programs?>> ? Perhaps academic skills, at least through

> standardized tests> ? Are we measuring critical thinking skills, and  

> if so

> how?> ? I am not aware that anyone in adult literacy education is  

> measuring>

> creative skills.>> If Marc Tucker is right, we are not paying  

> attention to

> one of the> greatest economic assets, one of the historic strengths of  

> the

> U.S. I> agree with Tucker and believe that the nearly exclusive focus  

> on

> high> stakes basic skills tests for K-12, and the focus on only  

> traditional>

> basic skills for the GED tests disrespects important creative skills>  

> like

> the ability to look at a problem freshly and from different>  

> perspectives,

> the ability to try out and evaluate a range of> solutions, the ability  

> to

> represent an idea with an image, a moving> image, a drawing; a  

> metaphor or

> other figurative language, or> rhetoric; and the ability to understand  

> and

> follow, but instead to> disregard instructions or traditional paths of

> thinking (what we now> often describe as "thinking outside the  

> box").>> Are

> these goals that every GED student has or should have. No. Should>  

> they be?

> Not necessarily. But for students who see the GED or high> school  

> diploma as

> a way out of poverty, as a stepping stone to stable> employment and

> self-sufficiency, as a key to open the door to> successful  

> post-secondary

> learning, these are the skills we should be> teaching and measuring:

> academic skills, including critical thinking> and creativity.>> I  

> invite

> your comments on this.>> David J. Rosen> djrosen at comcast.net>>>> On  

> Oct 26,

> 2007, at 3:39 PM, Borge, Toni F wrote:>>> When we are referring to

> creativity do we mean teaching critical>> thinking skills which once  

> our

> students know how to think in a>> critical thinking way they will be

> successful in achieving their>> education and other life goals.  

> However,

> just like K-12 education,>> adult education is captured on the high  

> stakes

> spinning wheel of>> accountability which stifles creativity and  

> teachers

> teach to the>> test.>>>> Toni Borge>>>> BHCC>> Adult Education &  

> Transitions

> Program>>>> Boston, MA>>>>>>>> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:assessment->> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of shirley ledet>>  

> Sent:

> Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:30 PM>> To: The Assessment Discussion  

> List>>

> Subject: [Assessment 1001] Re: GED Discussion - what you need to

> know!>>>>>>>> I agree that creativity is not the enemy of success on

> standardized>> test. We need look no further then those who have been

> successful>> on any type of test. We tend to use terms like natuarally

> gifted,>> just smart, etc. If you speak to these folks they are well>>

> rounded, enjoy reading, mvies, theater, they tend to use terms like>>  

> "I

> don't know, I just know stuff." Researchers have found that>> this may  

> be

> the reason for disparity between ethnicity. I believe>> there is more

> disparity between socio economic background then>> ethnicity. Exposure  

> to

> the arts, banking industry, faculty,>> medicine, legal issues as part  

> of

> your everyday life tends to offer>> more of an advantage when testing  

> then

> someone whose only exposure>> is to go to school and study hard. My  

> students

> participate in a>> quite a few creative projects and those that "get  

> into

> it" tend to>> do better in all subjects. Those that feel it is a waste  

> of

> time>> and they just want to "study for the GED" are generally  

> frustrated>>

> when "all of their hard work does not pay off like they would>> like."

> Creativity also leads to retention; especially those>> activities that  

> have

> to be completed in increments. Let's bring on>> more creativity!>>>>  

> Shirley

> Ledet>>>> GED Instructor>>>> NHC-Carver>>>> djrosen at comcast.net  

> wrote:>>>>

> Colleagues,>>>> I am a proponent of creativity in adult literacy

> education -->> indeed in all education. As Marc Tucker, President of  

> the

> National>> Center for Education and the Economy, has said in a  

> presention>>

> recently to the National Commission on Adult Literacy, http://  

> <http:///> >>

> www.caalusa.org/video/choices.html , the U.S. education system -->>  

> and he

> includes adult education, cannot be competitive without high>> academic

> standards AND creativity.>>>> But many GED teachers and administrators

> believe that their>> students will not pass the GED unless they focus  

> on

> skills and>> knowledge needed to pass the test, that creativity is a>>

> "distraction" and a time-waster. (Many K-12 teachers,>> administrators  

> or

> policy makers also believe creativity distracts>> from passing high  

> stakes

> tests.) I hate to be the one to raise this>> issue, but it's the key

> question on the minds of many GED teachers>> and administrators, so I  

> invite

> the panelists to address it.>>>> Is creativity a distraction or is it

> essential for success? Why?>>>>>> David J. Rosen>>

> djrosen at comcast.net>>>> -------------- Original

> message ---------------------->> From: "Marie Cora">>> Hi  

> everyone,>>>>>>

> We've had several new subscribers over the past day, and so I>> wanted  

> to>>>

> give a quick reminder where you can get the information on this>>>

> discussion. For the full announcement, information on guests, and>>>

> suggested resources go to:>>>>>>

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/>>

> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>> If you missed the posts from yesterday -  

> there

> were a couple ->> you can>>> catch up in the archives at:>>>

> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>> Please  

> post

> your questions and also your own experiences to share>> now!>>>>>>

> Thanks!!>>>>>> Marie Cora>>> Assessment Discussion List

> Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>  

> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>>

> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator>>>

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From:  

> "Marie

> Cora" >> To: >> Subject: [Assessment 942] GED Discussion - what you  

> need to

> know!>> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:43:14 +0000>>>> Hi everyone,>>>>>>>>  

> We?ve

> had several new subscribers over the past day, and so I>> wanted to  

> give a

> quick reminder where you can get the information>> on this discussion.  

> For

> the full announcement, information on>> guests, and suggested  

> resources go

> to:>>>>>>>>

> http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/ 

> 07creativityGED.html>>>>>>>>

> If you missed the posts from yesterday ? there were a couple ? you>>  

> can

> catch up in the archives at: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/>>

> assessment/2007/date.html>>>>>>>> Please post your questions and also  

> your

> own experiences to share now!>>>>>>>> Thanks!!>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>>

> Assessment Discussion List Moderator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marie Cora>>>>

> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List

> Moderator>>>>

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>>>>>>>>>>>>  

> ------------------------------->>

> National Institute for Literacy>> Assessment mailing list>>

> Assessment at nifl.gov>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription  

> settings,

> please go to>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>> Email

> delivered to djrosen at comcast.net>> ------------------------------->>

> National Institute for Literacy>> Assessment mailing list>>

> Assessment at nifl.gov>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription  

> settings,

> please go to>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>> Email

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> ------------------------------->>

> National Institute for Literacy>> Assessment mailing list>>

> Assessment at nifl.gov>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription  

> settings,

> please go to>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>> Email

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> National Institute for Literacy> Assessment mailing list>

> Assessment at nifl.gov> To unsubscribe or change your subscription  

> settings,

> please go to> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment> Email

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> Assessment at nifl.gov> To unsubscribe or change your subscription  

> settings,

> please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment> Email

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>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?.  

> Stop by

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