Was this counseling done for both ABE/GED and ESL students, and if so how might the counseling have differed between the two types of students?
 
My counseling was done with ABE/GED and Vocational students. I Found the ABE students were more difficult to deal with because they had difficulties "seeing" themselves as anything else but an endless ABE student.. Their poor "feelings" about them selves were reinforced by our testing and placement policies as well as our inability to deal with learning differences and LD issues.
 
Vocational was easier. The students felt as if they were working on a specific goal that had ties to adult/ $$$ issues that they saw as "solvable" through participation in training.  . LD issues still existed as well as life issues that exist with all adult groups.
 
The new types of approaches to ABE/GED that use contextual curriculum have to help. I have never heard any adult say" my goal is to be an ABE/GED student" .
 
How effective could you say that making students aware of the need to improve  certain "skills" has been?  My sense is that making one aware is a necessary first step yet hardly sufficient, but I am not sure what more can be done at the program/institutional level.
 
Awareness is, you are right , the first step. An ABE/GED program with persistence, personal support and decision making etc... built into  a contextual curriculum can't hurt.  Counseling staff that support peer mentoring /tutoring programs seem to work. Bringing in agencies that do community support activities that your own program does not do seems to work. There are may community agencies that get "paid" to serve your students and can find that it is convent to serve them at your school. It gives them the added benefit of providing services to larger numbers of persons  who they will be able to contact regularly. Students with support have more of a chance of sticking with both school and the services so both programs win.
 
 I am interested in hearing what others have done in their programs to bring in community support.
 
 
Robin Matusow
Rehabilitation Instructional Specialist
Miami-Dade County Public Schools
Regional Operations
(305) 995-1842

________________________________

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of French, Allan
Sent: Fri 10/9/2009 5:16 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 2208] Re: ROI and Non-Cognitive Measures ofOutcomesinABE



Thank you Robin for addressing my question.  I hope it is a start to a useful dialogue.  

 

Let me gently push you with two follow-up questions:  

(1)    Was this counseling done for both ABE/GED and ESL students, and if so how might the counseling have differed between the two types of students?

(2)    How effective could you say that making students aware of the need to improve  certain "skills" has been?  My sense is that making one aware is a necessary first step yet hardly sufficient, but I am not sure what more can be done at the program/institutional level.

 

 

 

Allan

==========================

 

Allan D. French

 

ESL Instructor and Assessment Coordinator

Basic & Transitional Studies Division

South Seattle Community College

206-768-6836

afrench at sccd.ctc.edu

 

 

 

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Matusow, Robin I.
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:30 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 2206] Re: ROI and Non-Cognitive Measures ofOutcomesinABE

 

For me and in my (past) world, here is how the assessment results were used. 

·         Vocational counseling and career planning including significant educational decision making.

·         Personal and educational self-awareness- If in discussions with a prospective student we discuss things (I am not going to use non-cognitive) like persistence, self-esteem etc..... we would  talk about educational goals and how high scores on the previous measures are an aid to participating in both long and short term educational programs. 

·         If the sores measured are low- we would talk about developing the measured skills , paying attention to things in life that cause the low scores and developing an awareness that improving the measured skills will have positive results in reaching their educational goal and in their personal life.  

 

As a teacher, wouldn't you like to have students who have had that discussion and vocational decision making process before they came into your classroom?                                                                                                                 As a teacher, wouldn't you like to know what the scores were to assist your student while in your classroom?

Robin Matusow
Rehabilitation Instructional Specialist
Miami-Dade County Public Schools
1450 Northeast Second Avenue, Ste. 837
Miami, FL 33132
Office: 305 995-1842
Fax: 305 523-0738

rmatusow at dadeschools.net

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of French, Allan
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 2:39 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 2202] Re: ROI and Non-Cognitive Measures of OutcomesinABE

 

Michael:

 

As I said in a previous post, as a classroom instructor and an assessment coordinator for my program, I need an answer to a ninth question or else answers to the first eight become less important to me:  (9) What is to be done with the assessment results?  What interventions can be suggested to promote improvement in those areas deemed to be inhibiting learning?  If a program can't utilize the assessment results then why have them, no matter how valid, fair and appropriate they may be?

 

I don't know if "non-cognitive" is an appropriate term or not for the traits we have been referring to, but I am not sure why it is "oxymoronic."  Nickel and copper are referred to as "non-ferrous metals."  Is "non-ferrous" an oxymoronic label?

 

Yes, I find it interesting to review the origin and evolution of terms and their meanings.  In all areas of life, terminology changes over time, and the meaning and uses of any given term change over time.  How do we know what is what Catherine refers to as "the actual" meaning of a term:  the original meaning (consider the holiday names "Christmas" and "Halloween"), the most popular meaning and use, the latest usage ("bad" can mean good in some aspects of popular culture), whatever some panel of "experts" decide, something particular to the specific context, or what?  For myself, I am interested in whatever term proves useful for effectively communicating with my peers.  This latter often requires some effort at clarification (such as distinguishing between "appraisal," "formative," "summative" and "high-stakes" when referring to types of assessments) but I don't want my colleagues and I to get bogged down in the etymology of the terms (which may be interesting but in the end not really decisive), I just want us to be "on the same page."

 

Allan

 

 

Allan D. French

 

ESL Instructor and Assessment Coordinator

Basic & Transitional Studies Division

South Seattle Community College

206-768-6836

afrench at sccd.ctc.edu

 

 

 

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Michael Gyori
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:56 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Cc: The AAACE-NLA Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 2201] Re: ROI and Non-Cognitive Measures of Outcomes inABE

 

Hello Catherine, Tom, and everyone,

I'd like to begin by noting that I wholeheartedly and without reservation agree with Catherine's words below. Further, I'd like to tie in her words with some foundational principles of assessment.

We have had quite a lively discussion about the use of the terms "cognitive," and especially "non-cognitive."  For the record, and I repeat, there are several subscribers who have problems with the latter, even dismiss it altogether (as do I).  A response I got during a telephone conversation yesterday with a non-subscribing professional colleague of mine to the term "non-cognitive" was that it is oxymoronic.  I'll leave that one alone for now, but would suggest the response is worthy of consideration.

Before we even begin designing assessments, there are a few questions we must continually keep in mind: 

1.	What is the purpose of a particular assessment tool? 
2.	Whose interests are being met by an assessment tool? 
3.	Are the individuals who are being assessed positively vested in some manner in those interests? 
4.	Are the underlying constructs valid, i.e. do they refer to "something" that the population-at-large (and not only the ivory towers of academia and government) can recognize, accept, and identify with at a given point in time? 
5.	Are the results of the assessment useful, meaningful, and sufficiently generalizable (with respect especially to norm-referenced measures) if there are high stakes associated with them (i.e. can result in far-reaching impacts on individual lives)? 
6.	Are there other and/or further assessments available and being used that can point test-takers to alternative life choices that ultimately lead to desired life outcomes? 
7.	Are ongoing efforts being made with respect to test validation and the reliability of measures (often a daunting task, I might add)? 
8.	Is everything being done to control for countless intervening variables that do not relate to the knowledge, skill sets, and performances the assessment tools seek to identify? 

I'll conclude by saying if there are hidden agenda-free efforts to address traits such as low-level motivation, they most certainly can be successful if they address both the underlying affective causes and the need for cognitively meaningful learning experiences.  The effects of classroom instruction, for example, can be profound, and much more than academic subject-area specific (cognitive?) learning and human development can occur in classroom settings. 

Michael

 

Michael A. Gyori 

Maui International Language School 

www.mauilanguage.com <http://www.mauilanguage.com/> 

 

 

________________________________

From: Catherine B. King <cb.king at verizon.net>
To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>
Sent: Thu, October 8, 2009 12:24:21 PM
Subject: [Assessment 2200] Re: ROI and Non-Cognitive Measures of Outcomes in ABE

Hello Tom:

Your argument proves that, in many cases, we overlook the term, and speak to 
the underlying meaning that we are trying to purvey with the term.  I can 
see how an economist might pick up this term, understand what it points to, 
but without thinking about the implications of the term's actual meaning 
with regard to the real and remarkable differences we are speaking 
about--about the complex layers of human meaning and development that we 
teach to and can assess (as you say your research shows in ABE and that is 
ignored in funding circles).

But shouldn't we as professional educators pay close attention to the 
technical terms we use?  And cannot/should not we bring these issues to the 
attention of those in and out of our profession who use them?  (Is this an 
"everyone's doing it" argument, or:  It's a Nobel Prize Winner, so 
everything he says must be right?)

It doesn't make sense because:  For instance, certainly, we (and all 
teachers) are trying to develop our understanding and influence on 
motivation, conscientiousness, etc., etc. --all of those remote human 
developmental issues that are foundational to human learning.  (My K-12 
teachers are always looking at these issues and what the fields are up to in 
their theoretical development of them; and EFF is centered around many of 
these issues.)  The general assumption is that we can influence these 
skills, attitudes, etc.

However, even without the other reasons why not to use this term, on its 
surface, it doesn't make sense to

(1) attempt to TEACH to motivational factors or consciensciousness, etc., or 
to ASSESS them with an aim to change/improve them

(2) while purveying that these skills, etc., are non-cognitive.

If they are non-cognitive, do we have any hope of having an influence on 
them?  Or is the end-run aim to just throw out people who have "low 
non-cognitive skills" from our programs--"it's hopeless, these skills are 
non-cognitive"?

Or perhaps in all of the literature that is out there, we are mistaken to 
think that "cognitive" has nothing to do with "learning"?

Regards,

Catherine King
Adjunct Instructor
Department of Education
National University
San Diego, CA



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <tsticht at znet.com>
To: <assessment at nifl.gov>
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:13 PM
Subject: [Assessment 2197] Re: ROI and Non-Cognitive Measures of Outcomes in 
ABE


Catherine King: You said  "My argument is that using that term is not going
to bolster the argument for (rightly) focusing on such content. Rather, it
will only help solidify the sense (in the minds of policy-makers) that this
content is not worthwhile pursuing--it's fuzzy and "touchy-feely," and if
its non-cognitive, how can we **know** it or influence it in
education--which is about learning?"


But this is exactly the opposite of what has happened. In my earlier
messages on the Assessment list I reported that James Heckman, the Nobel
prize-winning economist was advising the Obama administration regarding the
ROI on early childhood education and he and his collaborators have been the
primary instigators of the now widely used term "non-cognitive" in
reference to education.


Then later I reported that the President's Council of Economic Advisors in a
2009 report, speaking about the ABE system, stated, "Although "interactive"
skills, such as effective communication and the ability to work well with
others, have not traditionally been studied, nor perhaps valued, by
educators, there is growing awareness of their importance for adult
success. Researchers have highlighted the growing importance of
"non-cognitive" skills in the labor market and argue that a range of
behaviors that reflect "greater student self-awareness, self-monitoring,
and self-control" are key indicators that students are able to effectively
learn and succeed in a modern post-secondary environment." (p. 10)


So it appears that economists who advise the Obama administration regarding
policy for education at both the early childhood and adult education levels
are already using the term "non-cognitive" and in fact they appear to be
advising educators to value these "skills" more.


It is within this policy and research context that I discuss cognitive and
non-cognitive factors in the education of adults and children. I use Leo
Lionni's books, not only because they are examples of beautiful art for
children, but because they bring up important values that illustrate what
the economic researchers and policy advisors to the President are now
emphasing as important in education.


I am finding all this quite interesting!


Tom Sticht



-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to cb.king at verizon.net

-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to tesolmichael at yahoo.com

 

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 23881 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/assessment/attachments/20091012/f6854510/attachment.bin