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<DIV>Hi Jodi,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Greetings from Lake Travis in Texas. We met a couple of times in the past,
I think at least once when you visited the Defense Language Institute English
Language Center in San Antonio and at TESOL. The reason I mention DLI is that it
represents a language program with little leeway to fail. I spent 20 years
from 1968-1988 with them. Their mission was/is to train allied and friendly
military personnel worldwide in general and specialized English. Most students
start ESL in their home countries with DLIELC personnel advising, and in some
cases teaching, in these overseas military language centers. It may still be the
largest language program in the world. Students after reaching certain
levels go to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, complete their general
English, usually go through specialized terminology and then on to whatever
training their country needs with the U.S. military. Students have run the full
gamut from recruits and NCO's up to generals and admirals. This is a very
tightly organized "well-packaged" language program with predictable training
times and results.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here's why I bring you this background. The rule of thumb while I was at at
DLI on class sizes was 8 students optimum and 10 maximum. This was rarely
broken. However, once in a while a higher headquarters' bean counter would
calculate that if a mere two or three students could be added to a class, voila,
look at the money we would save! This money came both from foreign governments
and Uncle Sam. DLI would argue and then try it, I believe several times over the
years. However, in an organization that has a very effective testing
system; both achievement and proficiency, it was soon noticed that the scores
were going down, just enough so that they could prove that no money was being
saved on teacher salaries and other expenses. I spent three years with the Royal
Thai Navy for DLI as language training advisor and remember having to twist arms
with the RTN Navy Education Department with the same problem. They wanted 15 in
a class.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here's what I suggest. I accept these numbers and know during my
last eight years of teaching adult immigrants that my best classes have
consistently been smaller. My students average around 9-11. If an organization
is stuck with a low budget, make the <STRONG>hours </STRONG>of training per week
lower, but keep the class sizes within 10 or so students. Fewer hours of really
effective training are certainly better than large classes where the student
attention level and collegiality are reduced. I remember Mary
Finocchiaro saying years ago that she didn't care how many students were in
her classroom, she would teach them! Unfortunately, most of us just aren't THAT
dynamic.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cheers, Ted</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: "JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall" <<A
href="mailto:crandall@umbc.edu">crandall@umbc.edu</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <<A
href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:23 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: [Assessment 1125] Re: Observation checklist</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Usha,<BR><BR>I'm not sure where Ted came up with that
number. Ted, is it your<BR>experience that with more than 10 students,
learning decreases? If so,<BR>how do you fund that number? I think a
lot of people would be interested<BR>in ways to decrease class size.<BR><BR>It's
more typical to have larger classes because of the funding<BR>constraints you
talk about. With more students, it becomes more important<BR>to involve
them in activities in which all get to participate, which means<BR>less teacher
talk and more student interaction. But even small classes<BR>need
that.<BR><BR>What do others feel about the "ideal class size"?<BR><BR>You have
also identified some of the major reasons adults drop out of<BR>classes (or opt
out, only to return at a later date). Do any of you keep<BR>records of
your students that would identify those who do return? Do you<BR>have any
idea of whether they have tried to continue learning English<BR>outside of the
classroom and how they did this? I don't know of any<BR>research about
adult English Language Learners in this area, but there is<BR>an ongoing study
by Stephen Reder and others at Portland State University<BR>following adult
literacy level students for several years. They have<BR>identified some
ways in which adults continue learning outside of the<BR>classroom and also that
some of these learners come back to classes after<BR>being out of them for some
time.<BR><BR>Providing support services is always a challenge. Have any of
you been<BR>able to partner with other organizations to reduce the cost of
these<BR>services to your program? What kinds of partnerships have
been most<BR>effective? If you teach in a community college, have your students
had<BR>access to the various support services provided to other
students?<BR><BR>Several of you have talked about the differences in progress
made by<BR>students with more advanced education and those who are at literacy
level.<BR> Because literacy level students take longer in making progress,
most<BR>programs provide separate classes for literacy level students and
literate<BR>beginners. Those learners with limited formal schooling and
literacy will<BR>need more time to make progress. I'm going to ask Forrest to
talk about<BR>what he and Steve Spurling and Sharon Seymour found out about
persistence<BR>of literacy level students and their learning
gains.<BR><BR>Students with advanced education in their own language may be able
to have<BR>a condensed program since they are already experienced as students
and<BR>often have high motivation to get through English so that they can
take<BR>courses related to their previous or future career. City College
of San<BR>Francisco offers an "accelerated course" in which 2 semesters worth
of<BR>work is taught during one. Do any of your programs offer something
along<BR>these lines?<BR><BR>Jodi<BR><BR><BR>> I have not been a part of this
discussion and I really liked the tool that<BR>> Ted has shared with
us. However, I have question and I hope that it is<BR>>
not<BR>> something that has already been asked and answered.<BR>><BR>>
The first item on Tedıs list is a little confusing. In most of our
ESL<BR>> classes we enroll more than 10 students because of fiscal
constraints and<BR>> the need for ESL in the community. So is it a
negative or a positive to<BR>> have fewer than 10 students in a class?
In our case, we expect to see<BR>> more<BR>> than 10 students in a class
and for the teacher to sustain the numbers.<BR>><BR>> As for the
achievement gap, it is huge issue in all literacy programs<BR>> because of
many socio-economic factors.<BR>><BR>> In our area, part of the Bay Area,
the boom in the housing market (in past<BR>> several years) and high rents
made it difficult for people to stay in one<BR>> neighborhood. Therefore they
constantly move (this is seen more in people<BR>> who do not have high levels
of education from their native country).<BR>><BR>> People with a certain
level of education (college degrees from their<BR>> countries are more likely
to find stable jobs and have some kind of<BR>> community support). Most
other people hold two or more jobs, go in and<BR>> out<BR>> of classes,
change schedules, and finally drop out because of various<BR>>
constraints. More than likely, they lack study skills and have no time
to<BR>> practice.<BR>><BR>> The achievement gap stems not only from the
differences in educational<BR>> levels of immigrants, but also due the huge
difference in the<BR>> availability<BR>> of community
resources.<BR>><BR>> Usha Narayanan<BR>> Sunnyvale-Cupertino Adult
Education<BR>> California<BR>> 408-522-2737<BR>><BR>><BR>> On
2/5/08 1:00 PM, "Ted Klein" <<A
href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Marie,<BR>>><BR>>> I did this list years
ago based on literally decades in and out of the<BR>>> U.S.A.<BR>>>
teaching, training teachers, supervising, coordinating, etc. in ESL.
It<BR>>> is<BR>>> based on what seems to work or not work. I'm proud
to say that I'm back<BR>>> in the<BR>>> ESL trenches after, among
other things, twenty years with the Defense<BR>>> Language<BR>>>
Institute English Language Center. I've been teaching immigrants
part<BR>>> time for<BR>>> the last eight years for the Adult
Education Department at Austin<BR>>> Community<BR>>> College.
Getting back in the trenches has reminded me of what language<BR>>>
teaching is all about. I feel sorry for anybody who has to work at a<BR>>>
higher<BR>>> level, because that's really not as much fun! I truly hope
that I apply<BR>>> everything on my list daily and don't fall into any of
the "easy traps."<BR>>> I<BR>>> have distributed this list over the
years to anybody who seemed<BR>>> interested and<BR>>> it is
published on my website at<BR>>> <A
href="http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/20questions.html">http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/20questions.html</A>
Feel absolutely free<BR>>> to use<BR>>> it in any way that will make
life easier for students. Thank you very<BR>>> much for<BR>>> the
input. Questions are welcome.<BR>>><BR>>> Cheers,
Ted<BR>>><BR>>> Theodore
A. (Ted) Klein, Jr.<BR>>> Independent Consultant in
Language<BR>>> and
Intercultural
Training<BR>>>
14456 Agarita
Road<BR>>>
Austin, Texas
78734-2009<BR>>>
Phone:512-266-1801<BR>>>
<A href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</A> <<A
href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com</A>><BR>>>
<A href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</A> <<A
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">http://www.tedklein-ESL.com</A>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>>>><BR>>>> From: Marie
Cora <<A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
To: <A
href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</A><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:42 PM<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Subject: [Assessment 1110] Re: Observation
checklist<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Hi Ted,<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Thanks for this. This is a great list - did you generate it
yourself?<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> I
guess I have a bunch of questions for you about
it:<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> How do you
use it? As a general guide, or do you deliberately try
to<BR>>>> address each item? Are you the only one who uses
this, or do others<BR>>>> you<BR>>>> work
with?<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> Do you
find that if you adhere to these principles, that the
students<BR>>>>
advance?<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
Marie<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>>> From: <A
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</A><BR>>>>>
[mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov] On<BR>>>>> Behalf Of Ted
Klein<BR>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 9:49
PM<BR>>>>> To: The Assessment Discussion List<BR>>>>>
Subject: [Assessment 1105] Re: No Questions or
Comments?!<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Marie,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
In the long run, this may be all that I
know.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Ted<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> <A
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</A> <<A
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">http://www.tedklein-ESL.com</A>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
20 Questions: LANGUAGE CLASS OBSERVATION
CHECKLIST YES<BR>>>>>
NO<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
1. Were there 10 or fewer students in the
class?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
2. Was the classroom comfortable in terms
of<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> environment and
learning
atmosphere?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
3. Did the instructor have a pleasant
and<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> supportive
personality?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
4. Were the lessons communication
centered,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> rather than
informational, most of the
time?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
5. Was the instructor a native-speaker
or<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> near native-speaker
of the target
language?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
6. Was the target language used as a
medium<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> of instruction
all or most of the
time?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
7. Did the students do most of the
communication,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> rather
than the
instructor?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
8. Did the instructor maintain control of the
class<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> in a
non-threatening
manner?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
9. Did members of the class seem compatible with
each<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> other and the
instructor?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
10. Did the students seem closely matched in
their<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> target
language
proficiency?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
11. Did all of the students
participate?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
12. Were students
enthusiastic?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
13. Did the instructor use a variety of
techniques<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> to
elicit communication
activities?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
14. Did the instructor assist students,
rather<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> than push
them?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
15. Did the instructor use normal, rather
than<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> exaggerated
speech?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
16. Were training aids used to enhance or
reinforce<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
results?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
17. Were new learning objectives reinforced
adequately?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
18. Was correction applied moderately and
positively<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> so
that it wouldn't inhibit
communication?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
19. Was there a balance of language skills
(listening,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
speaking, reading and
writing?)<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
20. Were students dealt with appropriately for
their<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> ages?
(e.g. adults treated like
adults).<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
---- Original Message
-----<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
From: Marie Cora <<A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
To: <A
href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</A><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 5:50
PM<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1103]
No Questions or
Comments?!<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Hello
everyone,<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Iım so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding
your<BR>>>>>> programıs effectiveness at helping ESL
students advance?? I was<BR>>>>>>
very<BR>>>>>> curious to know if subscribers experience the
same types of issues<BR>>>>>> that<BR>>>>>>
Dr. Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack
of<BR>>>>>> intensity<BR>>>>>> of
instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few<BR>>>>>>
opportunities<BR>>>>>> for professional
development.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the
ESL<BR>>>>>> student<BR>>>>>> from
advancing? What do you try to do about
that?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Please post your questions and comments
now.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Thanks!<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Marie Cora<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Assessment
Discussion List
Moderator<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Marie Cora<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> <A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A><BR>>>>>>
<<A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
NIFL Assessment Discussion List
Moderator<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> <A
href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</A><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
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Program in Language, Literacy & Culture<BR>Coordinator, Peace Corps Master's
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