<div>Forrest,</div>
<div> I like the idea of separate classes for those with a literacy background and those without. These two groups have such different needs. Having both in the class make it difficult for a teacher to meet the needs of either group well and I find that often the stronger students dominate the class, and their drive push the teacher forward. If the instructor does not keep up with the students who are learning at a faster rate, they often become frustrated and leave or mentally check out. However, if the instructor keeps up with those students, the others are unable to keep up and they get frustrated. </div>
<div> I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out. And regardless of how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.</div>
<div>Jackie<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 2/5/08, <b class="gmail_sendername">Forrest Chisman</b> <<a href="mailto:forrest@crosslink.net">forrest@crosslink.net</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">To all of you who commented on level of prior education as a factor in student performance:</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Everyone with whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more highly educated students do better in terms of persistence, learning gains, and transitions. And learning theory would lead us to expect this. Regrettably we found very little hard data about how much difference prior education makes, because too few programs track the level of prior education of their students and correlate it with outcomes. DO any of you do this? That is, do you have any data on HOW MUCH difference level of prior education makes? Or any strong impressions? And are there "cut points" in prior education that seem to make a difference -- e.g. students who are completely illiterate, students who at least reached high school, high school graduates, college graduates, etc. -- or is level of prior education pretty much of a continuum?</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">More importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between highly educated students and those with less prior education? Presumably students with very low levels of education are more likely end up in the lower level ESL courses (Literacy or Low-Beginning levels) why are (almost by definition) in the business of teaching basic literacy and sometimes math. Why isn't this enough? In your experience, does the "gap" exist at these levels too, or mainly at higher levels? At any levels, would it be desirable to place less highly educated students in separate classes from those with more education and adjust the curriculum/support systems for them accordingly? Some programs have tried "native language literacy" or the Spanish GED. What has been the experience of any of you with these approaches? Any other ideas? IS there an adult ESL equivalent of "bi-lingual education" that should be tried? </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">It seems to me that we need to come up with better ideas. Because the people who study immigration tell us that the level of education of immigrants has been falling. And if Immigration Reform mandates large numbers of undocumented people to "learn English" (whatever that means), ESL programs may be swamped with students who have very little education in their native countries and too little money to serve them. So anyone who has any ideas about how to bridge this "education gap" could help us a lot by posting ideas about how to close it on this discussion list.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Forrest Chisman</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Vice President</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">CAAL</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Tina_Luffman@yc.edu" target="_blank">Tina_Luffman@yc.edu</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM<span class="q"><br><b>To:</b> The Assessment Discussion List<br></span><b>Subject:</b> [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or Comments?!</span></p></div>
<div><span class="e" id="q_117ec19f7da86c3f_3">
<p> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Jackie,</span> <br><br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thank you for this information. I believe this research must be what my former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for bilingual education in the K-12 school system.</span> <br>
<br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Tina</span> <br><br><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Tina Luffman<br>Coordinator, Developmental Education<br>Verde Valley Campus<br>928-634-6544<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:tina_luffman@yc.edu" target="_blank">tina_luffman@yc.edu</a></span> <br>
<br></p>
<table style="WIDTH: 100%" cellpadding="0" width="100%" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 40%; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top" width="40%">
<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">"Jackie Coelho" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:jackie.coelho@gmail.com" target="_blank">jackie.coelho@gmail.com</a>></span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"> </span><br>
<span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Sent by: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">02/05/2008 11:13 AM</span> </p>
<table cellpadding="0" border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top">
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Please respond to<br>The Assessment Discussion List <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment@nifl.gov</a>></span></p>
</td></tr></tbody></table></td>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 59%; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top" width="59%">
<table style="WIDTH: 100%" cellpadding="0" width="100%" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top">
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: right" align="right"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">To</span></p></td>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top">
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">"The Assessment Discussion List" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment@nifl.gov</a>></span> </p>
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top">
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: right" align="right"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">cc</span></p></td>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top"></td></tr>
<tr>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top">
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: right" align="right"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Subject</span></p></td>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top">
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">[Assessment 1108] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or Comments?!</span></p></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p> </p>
<table cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top"></td>
<td style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt" valign="top"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p><br><br><br><tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Tina,</span></tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br><br><tt>This has been researched already and is the basis for the arguement in</tt><br><tt>favor of bilingual education, a good idea that was not implemented in</tt><br>
<tt>the best way. For many years people have known that a good foundation</tt><br><tt>in literacy in the first language will facilitate learning in a second</tt><br><tt>or third language.</tt><br><br><tt>Another interesting twist is the existence of languages that are not written.</tt><br>
<br><tt>Jackie</tt><br><br><br><tt>On 2/5/08, <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Tina_Luffman@yc.edu" target="_blank">Tina_Luffman@yc.edu</a> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Tina_Luffman@yc.edu" target="_blank">Tina_Luffman@yc.edu</a>> wrote:</tt><br>
<tt>> Hi list members,</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> My experience teaching ELAA students in the GED class is similar to that of</tt><br><tt>> Gail. If the student has a solid educational background in the country they</tt><br>
<tt>> came from in their native language, they tend to advance rather quickly and</tt><br><tt>> get their GED. Those coming with 6th grade educations from their country or</tt><br><tt>> lower tend to stay in the GED class for years and do not make much</tt><br>
<tt>> advancement.</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> This experience relates well to research done among Native American tribes</tt><br><tt>> teaching them English. Those Native Americans who were first taught literacy</tt><br>
<tt>> skills in their own tongue learned English much quicker than those who tried</tt><br><tt>> to learn literacy skills in English without that background in their own</tt><br><tt>> tongue. I also found similar problems when I was learning Spanish. The</tt><br>
<tt>> concepts I could mentally translate from English to Spanish were much easier</tt><br><tt>> to grasp and learn than those I didn't know in English. Perhaps this is</tt><br><tt>> something deserving more research.</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br><tt>> Tina</tt><br><tt>> Tina Luffman</tt><br><tt>> Coordinator, Developmental Education</tt><br><tt>> Verde Valley Campus</tt><br><tt>> 928-634-6544</tt><br><tt>> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:tina_luffman@yc.edu" target="_blank">tina_luffman@yc.edu</a></tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br><tt>> -----<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a> wrote: -----</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment@nifl.gov</a>></tt><br>
<tt>> From: "Gail Burnett" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:gburnett@sanford.org" target="_blank">gburnett@sanford.org</a>></tt><br><tt>> Sent by: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a></tt><br>
<tt>> Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM</tt><br><tt>> Subject: [Assessment 1104] {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or</tt><br><tt>> Comments?!</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed</tt><br>
<tt>> Warning: (not named).</tt><br><tt>> Warning: Please read the "AttachmentWarning.txt" attachment(s) for more</tt><br><tt>> information.</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> In our small adult education program, my experience (just about three years)</tt><br>
<tt>> is that students with solid educational backgrounds advance, particularly if</tt><br><tt>> they're not working too many hours. Those who advance the slowest, if at</tt><br><tt>> all, are immigrants who are barely literate in their first language. I would</tt><br>
<tt>> say that lack of education is a bigger factor than lack of time; a student</tt><br><tt>> who works full-time and is exhausted often will still succeed because he/she</tt><br><tt>> is familiar with academic work, and is goal-oriented. What we do is try to</tt><br>
<tt>> get our low-level students to come up with goals, but that's a hard concept</tt><br><tt>> in a second language.</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> This does not mean that the factors mentioned in the research don't play a</tt><br>
<tt>> part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained teachers (transitioned from</tt><br><tt>> another career, got trained mainly through workshops rather than classes).</tt><br><tt>> My skill level very well may contribute to students' slow advancement. It's</tt><br>
<tt>> hard for small adult education programs to get highly skilled ESL teachers.</tt><br><tt>> The pay is low and there are no benefits. But my program is encouraging me</tt><br><tt>> to get extra training and has me on a plan of improvement. I think we're</tt><br>
<tt>> making some progress.</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> Does this address any of the issues? And am I submitting it right?</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> ________________________________</tt><br><tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov" target="_blank">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a> on behalf of Marie Cora</tt><br><tt>> Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM</tt><br>
<tt>> To: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov" target="_blank">Assessment@nifl.gov</a></tt><br><tt>> Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> Hello everyone,</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> I'm so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding your</tt><br><tt>> program's effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? I was very</tt><br>
<tt>> curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of issues that Dr.</tt><br><tt>> Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack of intensity of</tt><br><tt>> instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few opportunities for</tt><br>
<tt>> professional development.</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL student</tt><br><tt>> from advancing? What do you try to do about that?</tt><br><tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> Please post your questions and comments now.</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> Thanks!</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> Marie Cora</tt><br><tt>> Assessment Discussion List Moderator</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> Marie Cora</tt><br><tt>> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com" target="_blank">marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</a></tt><br><tt>> <</tt></span><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com" target="_blank"><tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com></span></tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br>
<tt>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator</tt><br><tt>> </tt></span></a><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank"><tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</span></tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br>
<tt>></tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended</tt><br><tt>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.</tt><br><tt>> If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.</tt><br>
<tt>> This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the</tt><br><tt>> individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not</tt><br><tt>> disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.</tt><br>
<tt>> -------------------------------</tt><br><tt>> National Institute for Literacy</tt><br><tt>> Assessment mailing list</tt><br><tt>> Assessment@nifl.gov</tt><br><tt>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to</tt><br>
<tt>> </tt></span></a><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank"><tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</span></tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br>
<tt>> Email delivered to tina_luffman@yc.edu</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> -------------------------------</tt><br><tt>> National Institute for Literacy</tt><br><tt>> Assessment mailing list</tt><br>
<tt>> Assessment@nifl.gov</tt><br><tt>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to</tt><br><tt>> </tt></span></a><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank"><tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</span></tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br>
<tt>> Email delivered to jackie.coelho@gmail.com</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>-------------------------------</tt><br><tt>National Institute for Literacy</tt><br><tt>Assessment mailing list</tt><br>
<tt>Assessment@nifl.gov</tt><br><tt>To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to </tt></span></a><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank"><tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</span></tt><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br>
<tt>Email delivered to tina_luffman@yc.edu</tt><br></span></a></p></span></div></div></div><br>-------------------------------<br>National Institute for Literacy<br>Assessment mailing list<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a><br>
Email delivered to <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:jackie.coelho@gmail.com">jackie.coelho@gmail.com</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br>