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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ted,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This is fascinating stuff. Jodi will probably have more
questions about it than I do. (Jodi take note!) My major question is how far
one can generalize from the DLIELC experience. After all, military personnel
are a “captive audience” and it’s part of their “job”
to learn English via DLI. As a result, one would assume they are a very
motivated bunch. Do you think this skews your finding about class size,
instructional time and other variables, or not? Also, how large were the test
differences when you “squeezed in” a few more students/class? Do you
think the tests were good enough to make those differences meaningful?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Forrest<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
assessment-bounces@nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Ted Klein<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jodi Crandall; The Assessment Discussion List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Assessment 1130] Re: Observation checklist<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hi Jodi,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Greetings from Lake Travis in Texas. We met a couple of
times in the past, I think at least once when you visited the Defense Language
Institute English Language Center in San Antonio and at TESOL. The reason I
mention DLI is that it represents a language program with little leeway to
fail. I spent 20 years from 1968-1988 with them. Their mission was/is to train
allied and friendly military personnel worldwide in general and specialized
English. Most students start ESL in their home countries with DLIELC personnel
advising, and in some cases teaching, in these overseas military language
centers. It may still be the largest language program in the world. Students
after reaching certain levels go to Lackland Air Force Base in San
Antonio, complete their general English, usually go through specialized
terminology and then on to whatever training their country needs with the U.S.
military. Students have run the full gamut from recruits and NCO's up to
generals and admirals. This is a very tightly organized
"well-packaged" language program with predictable training times and
results.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Here's why I bring you this background. The rule of thumb
while I was at at DLI on class sizes was 8 students optimum and 10 maximum.
This was rarely broken. However, once in a while a higher headquarters' bean
counter would calculate that if a mere two or three students could be added to
a class, voila, look at the money we would save! This money came both from
foreign governments and Uncle Sam. DLI would argue and then try it, I believe
several times over the years. However, in an organization that has a
very effective testing system; both achievement and proficiency, it was soon
noticed that the scores were going down, just enough so that they could prove
that no money was being saved on teacher salaries and other expenses. I spent
three years with the Royal Thai Navy for DLI as language training advisor and
remember having to twist arms with the RTN Navy Education Department with the
same problem. They wanted 15 in a class.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Here's what I suggest. I accept these numbers and know
during my last eight years of teaching adult immigrants that my best
classes have consistently been smaller. My students average around 9-11. If an
organization is stuck with a low budget, make the <strong>hours </strong>of
training per week lower, but keep the class sizes within 10 or so students.
Fewer hours of really effective training are certainly better than large classes
where the student attention level and collegiality are reduced. I remember Mary
Finocchiaro saying years ago that she didn't care how many students were
in her classroom, she would teach them! Unfortunately, most of us just aren't
THAT dynamic.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Cheers, Ted<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>From: "JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall" <<a
href="mailto:crandall@umbc.edu">crandall@umbc.edu</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <<a
href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:23 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Subject: [Assessment 1125] Re: Observation checklist<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Usha,<br>
<br>
I'm not sure where Ted came up with that number. Ted, is it your<br>
experience that with more than 10 students, learning decreases? If so,<br>
how do you fund that number? I think a lot of people would be interested<br>
in ways to decrease class size.<br>
<br>
It's more typical to have larger classes because of the funding<br>
constraints you talk about. With more students, it becomes more important<br>
to involve them in activities in which all get to participate, which means<br>
less teacher talk and more student interaction. But even small classes<br>
need that.<br>
<br>
What do others feel about the "ideal class size"?<br>
<br>
You have also identified some of the major reasons adults drop out of<br>
classes (or opt out, only to return at a later date). Do any of you keep<br>
records of your students that would identify those who do return? Do you<br>
have any idea of whether they have tried to continue learning English<br>
outside of the classroom and how they did this? I don't know of any<br>
research about adult English Language Learners in this area, but there is<br>
an ongoing study by Stephen Reder and others at Portland State University<br>
following adult literacy level students for several years. They have<br>
identified some ways in which adults continue learning outside of the<br>
classroom and also that some of these learners come back to classes after<br>
being out of them for some time.<br>
<br>
Providing support services is always a challenge. Have any of you been<br>
able to partner with other organizations to reduce the cost of these<br>
services to your program? What kinds of partnerships have been most<br>
effective? If you teach in a community college, have your students had<br>
access to the various support services provided to other students?<br>
<br>
Several of you have talked about the differences in progress made by<br>
students with more advanced education and those who are at literacy level.<br>
Because literacy level students take longer in making progress, most<br>
programs provide separate classes for literacy level students and literate<br>
beginners. Those learners with limited formal schooling and literacy will<br>
need more time to make progress. I'm going to ask Forrest to talk about<br>
what he and Steve Spurling and Sharon Seymour found out about persistence<br>
of literacy level students and their learning gains.<br>
<br>
Students with advanced education in their own language may be able to have<br>
a condensed program since they are already experienced as students and<br>
often have high motivation to get through English so that they can take<br>
courses related to their previous or future career. City College of San<br>
Francisco offers an "accelerated course" in which 2 semesters worth
of<br>
work is taught during one. Do any of your programs offer something along<br>
these lines?<br>
<br>
Jodi<br>
<br>
<br>
> I have not been a part of this discussion and I really liked the tool that<br>
> Ted has shared with us. However, I have question and I hope that
it is<br>
> not<br>
> something that has already been asked and answered.<br>
><br>
> The first item on Tedıs list is a little confusing. In most of our
ESL<br>
> classes we enroll more than 10 students because of fiscal constraints and<br>
> the need for ESL in the community. So is it a negative or a positive
to<br>
> have fewer than 10 students in a class? In our case, we expect to
see<br>
> more<br>
> than 10 students in a class and for the teacher to sustain the numbers.<br>
><br>
> As for the achievement gap, it is huge issue in all literacy programs<br>
> because of many socio-economic factors.<br>
><br>
> In our area, part of the Bay Area, the boom in the housing market (in past<br>
> several years) and high rents made it difficult for people to stay in one<br>
> neighborhood. Therefore they constantly move (this is seen more in people<br>
> who do not have high levels of education from their native country).<br>
><br>
> People with a certain level of education (college degrees from their<br>
> countries are more likely to find stable jobs and have some kind of<br>
> community support). Most other people hold two or more jobs, go in
and<br>
> out<br>
> of classes, change schedules, and finally drop out because of various<br>
> constraints. More than likely, they lack study skills and have no
time to<br>
> practice.<br>
><br>
> The achievement gap stems not only from the differences in educational<br>
> levels of immigrants, but also due the huge difference in the<br>
> availability<br>
> of community resources.<br>
><br>
> Usha Narayanan<br>
> Sunnyvale-Cupertino Adult Education<br>
> California<br>
> 408-522-2737<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2/5/08 1:00 PM, "Ted Klein" <<a
href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Marie,<br>
>><br>
>> I did this list years ago based on literally decades in and out of the<br>
>> U.S.A.<br>
>> teaching, training teachers, supervising, coordinating, etc. in ESL.
It<br>
>> is<br>
>> based on what seems to work or not work. I'm proud to say that I'm
back<br>
>> in the<br>
>> ESL trenches after, among other things, twenty years with the Defense<br>
>> Language<br>
>> Institute English Language Center. I've been teaching immigrants part<br>
>> time for<br>
>> the last eight years for the Adult Education Department at Austin<br>
>> Community<br>
>> College. Getting back in the trenches has reminded me of what language<br>
>> teaching is all about. I feel sorry for anybody who has to work at a<br>
>> higher<br>
>> level, because that's really not as much fun! I truly hope that I
apply<br>
>> everything on my list daily and don't fall into any of the "easy
traps."<br>
>> I<br>
>> have distributed this list over the years to anybody who seemed<br>
>> interested and<br>
>> it is published on my website at<br>
>> <a href="http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/20questions.html">http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/20questions.html</a>
Feel absolutely free<br>
>> to use<br>
>> it in any way that will make life easier for students. Thank you very<br>
>> much for<br>
>> the input. Questions are welcome.<br>
>><br>
>> Cheers, Ted<br>
>><br>
>> Theodore A. (Ted) Klein, Jr.<br>
>> Independent Consultant in Language<br>
>> and
Intercultural Training<br>
>>
14456 Agarita Road<br>
>> Austin,
Texas 78734-2009<br>
>>
Phone:512-266-1801<br>
>>
<a href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</a> <<a
href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com</a>><br>
>>
<a href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</a> <<a
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">http://www.tedklein-ESL.com</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>><br>
>>> From: Marie Cora <<a
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>> To: <a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:42 PM<br>
>>><br>
>>> Subject: [Assessment 1110] Re: Observation checklist<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi Ted,<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks for this. This is a great list - did you
generate it yourself?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> I guess I have a bunch of questions for you about it:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> How do you use it? As a general guide, or do you
deliberately try to<br>
>>> address each item? Are you the only one who uses this,
or do others<br>
>>> you<br>
>>> work with?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Do you find that if you adhere to these principles, that the
students<br>
>>> advance?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Marie<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>> From: <a href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a><br>
>>>> [mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov] On<br>
>>>> Behalf Of Ted Klein<br>
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 9:49 PM<br>
>>>> To: The Assessment Discussion List<br>
>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1105] Re: No Questions or
Comments?!<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Marie,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> In the long run, this may be all that I know.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Ted<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</a>
<<a href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">http://www.tedklein-ESL.com</a>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 20 Questions: LANGUAGE CLASS OBSERVATION
CHECKLIST YES<br>
>>>> NO<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 1. Were there 10 or fewer students in the class?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 2. Was the classroom comfortable in terms of<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> environment and learning atmosphere?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 3. Did the instructor have a pleasant and<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> supportive personality?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 4. Were the lessons communication centered,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> rather than informational, most of the
time?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 5. Was the instructor a native-speaker or<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> near native-speaker of the target
language?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 6. Was the target language used as a medium<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> of instruction all or most of the
time?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 7. Did the students do most of the communication,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> rather than the instructor?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 8. Did the instructor maintain control of the class<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> in a non-threatening manner?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 9. Did members of the class seem compatible
with each<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> other and the instructor?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 10. Did the students seem closely matched in their<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> target language proficiency?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 11. Did all of the students participate?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 12. Were students enthusiastic?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 13. Did the instructor use a variety of techniques<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> to elicit communication
activities?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 14. Did the instructor assist students, rather<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> than push them?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 15. Did the instructor use normal, rather than<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> exaggerated speech?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 16. Were training aids used to enhance or reinforce<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> results?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 17. Were new learning objectives reinforced adequately?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 18. Was correction applied moderately and positively<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> so that it wouldn't inhibit
communication?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 19. Was there a balance of language skills (listening,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> speaking, reading and writing?)<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 20. Were students dealt with appropriately for their<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ages? (e.g. adults treated like
adults).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ---- Original Message -----<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> From: Marie Cora <<a
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</a>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> To: <a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 5:50 PM<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or
Comments?!<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Hello everyone,<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Iım so surprised! No one has anything to comment
on regarding your<br>
>>>>> programıs effectiveness at helping ESL students
advance?? I was<br>
>>>>> very<br>
>>>>> curious to know if subscribers experience the same
types of issues<br>
>>>>> that<br>
>>>>> Dr. Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their
research: a lack of<br>
>>>>> intensity<br>
>>>>> of instruction/few protocols for transitioning
students/few<br>
>>>>> opportunities<br>
>>>>> for professional development.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> What are the issues in your program that you feel
inhibit the ESL<br>
>>>>> student<br>
>>>>> from advancing? What do you try to do about
that?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Please post your questions and comments now.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Thanks!<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Marie Cora<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Assessment Discussion List Moderator<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Marie Cora<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</a><br>
>>>>> <<a href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</a>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> -------------------------------<br>
>>>>> National Institute for Literacy<br>
>>>>> Assessment mailing list<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings,
please go to<br>
>>>>> <a href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a><br>
>>>>> Email delivered to <a
href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> -------------------------------<br>
>>> National Institute for Literacy<br>
>>> Assessment mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please
go to<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a><br>
>>> Email delivered to <a href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -------------------------------<br>
>> National Institute for Literacy<br>
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-- <br>
JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall<br>
Professor, Education Department<br>
Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture<br>
Coordinator, Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual<br>
Education<br>
University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC)<br>
1000 Hilltop Circle, Baltimore, MD 21250<br>
ph: 410-455-2313/2376 fax:
410-455-8947/1880<br>
email: <a href="mailto:crandall@umbc.edu">crandall@umbc.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://www.umbc.edu/llc/">www.umbc.edu/llc/</a><br>
<a href="http://www.umbc.edu/esol/">www.umbc.edu/esol/</a><br>
<a href="http://www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html">www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html</a><br>
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National Institute for Literacy<br>
Assessment mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
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href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a><br>
Email delivered to <a href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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