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<DIV>Jodi,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Same here! As long as the BEST Test is used to show gains, I'm afraid that
there isn't much chance that REAL gains could be charted and compared. It is
used too often to measure progress and is not as good for that purpose as one
would hope. Really valid proficiency tests are the only way to prove the point.
Achievement tests don't tell much in terms of overall progress. I would also
guess that it would take a minimum of 120 hours of solid training to have a
measureable level with any test that one could play numbers with. Other factors
including attendance, etc. would have to be factored in. Adults have families
and jobs in the way of total dedication to attendance. Also, one would
have to have a test in which human judgment would play a small role. The BEST is
fine for its original purpose, which was to place persons with others at their
same levels of communication. Good measurement is the only way to prove
anything. I often rely on plain old gut instincts to figure how things are
really going. I know that's not very scientific.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cheers, <FONT face="Script MT Bold" size=5>Ted</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: "JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall" <<A
href="mailto:crandall@umbc.edu">crandall@umbc.edu</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <<A
href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:05 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: [Assessment 1138] Re: Observation checklist</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi, Ted. Glad to make contact again.<BR><BR>I definitely
agree that smaller classes are more likely to bring learner<BR>gains, especially
in language, since students will have more opportunity<BR>to speak when there
are fewer students. I didn't know about the DLI<BR>policy, but it is a
good one. The problem with adult ESL classes, I fear,<BR>is that there is
such limited money available that programs would find it<BR>difficult to keep
class size to these numbers.<BR><BR>Has anyone tried to reduce class size and
chart the learning gains? If<BR>so, please share with us all. It
might be that this would be a good<BR>investment. If students in smaller
classes make faster gains, then there<BR>would be more spaces available as these
students transitioned to other<BR>classes or the
workforce.<BR><BR>Jodi<BR><BR>Hi Jodi,<BR>><BR>> Greetings from Lake
Travis in Texas. We met a couple of times in the past,<BR>> I think at least
once when you visited the Defense Language Institute<BR>> English Language
Center in San Antonio and at TESOL. The reason I mention<BR>> DLI is that it
represents a language program with little leeway to fail. I<BR>> spent 20
years from 1968-1988 with them. Their mission was/is to train<BR>> allied and
friendly military personnel worldwide in general and<BR>> specialized
English. Most students start ESL in their home countries with<BR>> DLIELC
personnel advising, and in some cases teaching, in these overseas<BR>>
military language centers. It may still be the largest language program
in<BR>> the world. Students after reaching certain levels go to Lackland Air
Force<BR>> Base in San Antonio, complete their general English, usually go
through<BR>> specialized terminology and then on to whatever training their
country<BR>> needs with the U.S. military. Students have run the full gamut
from<BR>> recruits and NCO's up to generals and admirals. This is a very
tightly<BR>> organized "well-packaged" language program with predictable
training times<BR>> and results.<BR>><BR>> Here's why I bring you this
background. The rule of thumb while I was at<BR>> at DLI on class sizes was 8
students optimum and 10 maximum. This was<BR>> rarely broken. However, once
in a while a higher headquarters' bean<BR>> counter would calculate that if a
mere two or three students could be<BR>> added to a class, voila, look at the
money we would save! This money came<BR>> both from foreign governments and
Uncle Sam. DLI would argue and then try<BR>> it, I believe several times over
the years. However, in an organization<BR>> that has a very effective testing
system; both achievement and<BR>> proficiency, it was soon noticed that the
scores were going down, just<BR>> enough so that they could prove that no
money was being saved on teacher<BR>> salaries and other expenses. I spent
three years with the Royal Thai Navy<BR>> for DLI as language training
advisor and remember having to twist arms<BR>> with the RTN Navy Education
Department with the same problem. They wanted<BR>> 15 in a
class.<BR>><BR>> Here's what I suggest. I accept these numbers and know
during my last<BR>> eight years of teaching adult immigrants that my best
classes have<BR>> consistently been smaller. My students average around 9-11.
If an<BR>> organization is stuck with a low budget, make the hours of
training per<BR>> week lower, but keep the class sizes within 10 or so
students. Fewer hours<BR>> of really effective training are certainly better
than large classes where<BR>> the student attention level and collegiality
are reduced. I remember Mary<BR>> Finocchiaro saying years ago that she
didn't care how many students were<BR>> in her classroom, she would teach
them! Unfortunately, most of us just<BR>> aren't THAT
dynamic.<BR>><BR>> Cheers, Ted<BR>> <A
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: "JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall" <<A
href="mailto:crandall@umbc.edu">crandall@umbc.edu</A>><BR>> To: "The
Assessment Discussion List" <<A
href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</A>><BR>> Sent:
Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:23 PM<BR>> Subject: [Assessment 1125] Re:
Observation checklist<BR>><BR>><BR>> Usha,<BR>><BR>> I'm not sure
where Ted came up with that number. Ted, is it your<BR>> experience
that with more than 10 students, learning decreases? If so,<BR>> how do
you fund that number? I think a lot of people would be interested<BR>>
in ways to decrease class size.<BR>><BR>> It's more typical to have larger
classes because of the funding<BR>> constraints you talk about. With
more students, it becomes more important<BR>> to involve them in activities
in which all get to participate, which means<BR>> less teacher talk and more
student interaction. But even small classes<BR>> need
that.<BR>><BR>> What do others feel about the "ideal class
size"?<BR>><BR>> You have also identified some of the major reasons adults
drop out of<BR>> classes (or opt out, only to return at a later date).
Do any of you keep<BR>> records of your students that would identify those
who do return? Do you<BR>> have any idea of whether they have tried to
continue learning English<BR>> outside of the classroom and how they did
this? I don't know of any<BR>> research about adult English Language
Learners in this area, but there is<BR>> an ongoing study by Stephen Reder
and others at Portland State University<BR>> following adult literacy level
students for several years. They have<BR>> identified some ways in
which adults continue learning outside of the<BR>> classroom and also that
some of these learners come back to classes after<BR>> being out of them for
some time.<BR>><BR>> Providing support services is always a
challenge. Have any of you been<BR>> able to partner with other
organizations to reduce the cost of these<BR>> services to your
program? What kinds of partnerships have been most<BR>>
effective? If you teach in a community college, have your students had<BR>>
access to the various support services provided to other
students?<BR>><BR>> Several of you have talked about the differences in
progress made by<BR>> students with more advanced education and those who are
at literacy level.<BR>> Because literacy level students take longer in
making progress, most<BR>> programs provide separate classes for literacy
level students and literate<BR>> beginners. Those learners with limited
formal schooling and literacy will<BR>> need more time to make progress. I'm
going to ask Forrest to talk about<BR>> what he and Steve Spurling and Sharon
Seymour found out about persistence<BR>> of literacy level students and their
learning gains.<BR>><BR>> Students with advanced education in their own
language may be able to have<BR>> a condensed program since they are already
experienced as students and<BR>> often have high motivation to get through
English so that they can take<BR>> courses related to their previous or
future career. City College of San<BR>> Francisco offers an
"accelerated course" in which 2 semesters worth of<BR>> work is taught during
one. Do any of your programs offer something along<BR>> these
lines?<BR>><BR>> Jodi<BR>><BR>><BR>>> I have not been a part
of this discussion and I really liked the tool<BR>>> that<BR>>> Ted
has shared with us. However, I have question and I hope that it
is<BR>>> not<BR>>> something that has already been asked and
answered.<BR>>><BR>>> The first item on Tedıs list is a little
confusing. In most of our ESL<BR>>> classes we enroll more than 10
students because of fiscal constraints<BR>>> and<BR>>> the need for
ESL in the community. So is it a negative or a positive to<BR>>>
have fewer than 10 students in a class? In our case, we expect to
see<BR>>> more<BR>>> than 10 students in a class and for the teacher
to sustain the numbers.<BR>>><BR>>> As for the achievement gap, it
is huge issue in all literacy programs<BR>>> because of many
socio-economic factors.<BR>>><BR>>> In our area, part of the Bay
Area, the boom in the housing market (in<BR>>> past<BR>>> several
years) and high rents made it difficult for people to stay in<BR>>>
one<BR>>> neighborhood. Therefore they constantly move (this is seen more
in<BR>>> people<BR>>> who do not have high levels of education from
their native country).<BR>>><BR>>> People with a certain level of
education (college degrees from their<BR>>> countries are more likely to
find stable jobs and have some kind of<BR>>> community support).
Most other people hold two or more jobs, go in and<BR>>> out<BR>>>
of classes, change schedules, and finally drop out because of
various<BR>>> constraints. More than likely, they lack study skills
and have no time<BR>>> to<BR>>> practice.<BR>>><BR>>>
The achievement gap stems not only from the differences in
educational<BR>>> levels of immigrants, but also due the huge difference
in the<BR>>> availability<BR>>> of community
resources.<BR>>><BR>>> Usha Narayanan<BR>>>
Sunnyvale-Cupertino Adult Education<BR>>> California<BR>>>
408-522-2737<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> On 2/5/08 1:00 PM, "Ted Klein"
<<A href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>>> Marie,<BR>>>><BR>>>> I did
this list years ago based on literally decades in and out of the<BR>>>>
U.S.A.<BR>>>> teaching, training teachers, supervising, coordinating,
etc. in ESL. It<BR>>>> is<BR>>>> based on what seems to work
or not work. I'm proud to say that I'm back<BR>>>> in
the<BR>>>> ESL trenches after, among other things, twenty years with
the Defense<BR>>>> Language<BR>>>> Institute English Language
Center. I've been teaching immigrants part<BR>>>> time
for<BR>>>> the last eight years for the Adult Education Department at
Austin<BR>>>> Community<BR>>>> College. Getting back in the
trenches has reminded me of what language<BR>>>> teaching is all about.
I feel sorry for anybody who has to work at a<BR>>>>
higher<BR>>>> level, because that's really not as much fun! I truly
hope that I apply<BR>>>> everything on my list daily and don't fall
into any of the "easy<BR>>>> traps."<BR>>>> I<BR>>>>
have distributed this list over the years to anybody who seemed<BR>>>>
interested and<BR>>>> it is published on my website at<BR>>>>
<A
href="http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/20questions.html">http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/20questions.html</A>
Feel absolutely free<BR>>>> to use<BR>>>> it in any way that
will make life easier for students. Thank you very<BR>>>> much
for<BR>>>> the input. Questions are
welcome.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Cheers,
Ted<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Theodore A. (Ted) Klein, Jr.<BR>>>> Independent Consultant
in
Language<BR>>>>
and Intercultural
Training<BR>>>>
14456 Agarita
Road<BR>>>>
Austin, Texas
78734-2009<BR>>>>
Phone:512-266-1801<BR>>>>
<A href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">taklein@austin.rr.com</A> <<A
href="mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com">mailto:taklein@austin.rr.com</A>><BR>>>>
<A href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</A> <<A
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">http://www.tedklein-ESL.com</A>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> From:
Marie Cora <<A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
To: <A
href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</A><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:42
PM<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1110] Re:
Observation
checklist<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Hi
Ted,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Thanks for this. This is a great list - did you generate
it<BR>>>>>
yourself?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
I guess I have a bunch of questions for you about
it:<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
How do you use it? As a general guide, or do you deliberately try
to<BR>>>>> address each item? Are you the only one who
uses this, or do others<BR>>>>> you<BR>>>>> work
with?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Do you find that if you adhere to these principles, that the
students<BR>>>>>
advance?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Marie<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>>>> From: <A
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</A><BR>>>>>>
[mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov] On<BR>>>>>> Behalf Of Ted
Klein<BR>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 9:49
PM<BR>>>>>> To: The Assessment Discussion
List<BR>>>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1105] Re: No Questions
or
Comments?!<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Marie,<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
In the long run, this may be all that I
know.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Ted<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> <A
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">www.tedklein-ESL.com</A> <<A
href="http://www.tedklein-ESL.com">http://www.tedklein-ESL.com</A>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
20 Questions: LANGUAGE CLASS OBSERVATION
CHECKLIST YES<BR>>>>>>
NO<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
1. Were there 10 or fewer students in the
class?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
2. Was the classroom comfortable in terms
of<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> environment
and learning
atmosphere?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
3. Did the instructor have a pleasant
and<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> supportive
personality?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
4. Were the lessons communication
centered,<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
rather than informational, most of the
time?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
5. Was the instructor a native-speaker
or<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> near
native-speaker of the target
language?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
6. Was the target language used as a
medium<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> of
instruction all or most of the
time?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
7. Did the students do most of the
communication,<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
rather than the
instructor?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
8. Did the instructor maintain control of the
class<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> in a
non-threatening
manner?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
9. Did members of the class seem compatible with
each<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> other and
the
instructor?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
10. Did the students seem closely matched in
their<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
target language
proficiency?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
11. Did all of the students
participate?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
12. Were students
enthusiastic?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
13. Did the instructor use a variety of
techniques<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
to elicit communication
activities?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
14. Did the instructor assist students,
rather<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
than push
them?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
15. Did the instructor use normal, rather
than<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
exaggerated
speech?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
16. Were training aids used to enhance or
reinforce<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
results?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
17. Were new learning objectives reinforced
adequately?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
18. Was correction applied moderately and
positively<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
so that it wouldn't inhibit
communication?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
19. Was there a balance of language skills
(listening,<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
speaking, reading and
writing?)<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
20. Were students dealt with appropriately for
their<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
ages? (e.g. adults treated like
adults).<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
---- Original Message
-----<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
From: Marie Cora <<A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
To: <A
href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</A><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 5:50
PM<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Subject: [Assessment
1103] No Questions or
Comments?!<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Hello
everyone,<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Iım so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding
your<BR>>>>>>> programıs effectiveness at helping ESL
students advance?? I was<BR>>>>>>>
very<BR>>>>>>> curious to know if subscribers experience
the same types of issues<BR>>>>>>>
that<BR>>>>>>> Dr. Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in
their research: a lack of<BR>>>>>>>
intensity<BR>>>>>>> of instruction/few protocols for
transitioning students/few<BR>>>>>>>
opportunities<BR>>>>>>> for professional
development.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the
ESL<BR>>>>>>> student<BR>>>>>>> from
advancing? What do you try to do about
that?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Please post your questions and comments
now.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Thanks!<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Marie Cora<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Assessment Discussion List
Moderator<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Marie Cora<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> <A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A><BR>>>>>>>
<<A
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</A>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
NIFL Assessment Discussion List
Moderator<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> <A
href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</A><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
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--<BR>> JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall<BR>> Professor, Education Department<BR>>
Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture<BR>> Coordinator,
Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual<BR>>
Education<BR>> University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC)<BR>> 1000
Hilltop Circle, Baltimore, MD 21250<BR>> ph:
410-455-2313/2376 fax: 410-455-8947/1880<BR>> email: <A
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Program in Language, Literacy & Culture<BR>Coordinator, Peace Corps Master's
International Program in ESOL/Bilingual<BR>Education<BR>University of Maryland,
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