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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Andres,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I certainly agree with what you say about the limits of WIA/NRS.
And I’m glad your students progress so fast. But what percent of them
earn the Spanish GED? Also I’m not sure what happens to them then.
Although El Paso may be a Spanish=speaking community, our discussion here is
about how to teach students English. Having attained a Spanish GED, do your students
then take ESL classes? If so, how many of your students take ESL classes, and
how far do they advance in learning English BY ANY MEASURE? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Certainly the mix of skills that should be taught in non-credit ESL
is an arguable topic. As I understand it, most programs teach “life
skills” English at the non-credit level. They try to use the sorts of topics
that Elsa and Heide advocate as the content for teaching a progression of
English “academic skills” (reading, grammar, speaking, etc.) up to
about what (by tests made for native speakers) would be about the 9<sup>th</sup>
grade level. Both “life skills” and more “academic skills”
are presumed to be “portable skills” needed in an English speaking
country. Programs do this in different ways. Some use a set curriculum; others
use a more “Frerian” approach to insure the content is relevant to
student interests/needs --(see the profile of Yakima Valley Community College
in our “Torchlights” publication). I’m not sure why you find
this approach problematic. Can you elaborate?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think you are right to raise the question of what the “terminal
goal” of ESL should be. It’s a question too seldom discussed. What
do others think about it? My impression is that the terminal goal of most
programs is rarely the English GED (although it is at Yakima – and a significant
percentage reach it). Insofar as most have a “terminal goal” in
mind it seems to be to help students “do better” at life and in
work in an English-speaking environment. Effectively, students decide how much “better”
is enough, because students “vote with their feet” when they think
they have learned enough (or run out of free time and interest). But if “terminal
goals” are entirely student-centered, it is hard to assess the success
of ESL programs -- how much they benefit students. Anything goes! Hence most programs
I know also define success as progression up a series of levels of English
proficiency – the more progress the better. I’ve encountered few
people who have a problem with this general concept of “success”
(although it has no singular “terminal goal”). But many people have
trouble with the standardized tests that measure it. Often locally developed
tests are used to get around this problem. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For SOME colleges a secondary “terminal goal” is
entry to and success in credit courses (or VESL programs) taught in English.
This isn’t a hard “terminal goal” to measure and has LARGE
economic and other rewards, if it is attained. Thus I, for one, believe there
should be more emphasis on it. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What do other people think of Andres’ posting? Am I off
base here? And how do you all think “success” by a student in ESL should
be defined and/or measured? It seems to me that unless ESL programs aren’t
clear about what counts as “success,” students may not be either.
And that may contribute to low persistence and learning gains. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Forrest<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> assessment-bounces@nifl.gov
[mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov] <b>On Behalf Of </b>andresmuro@aol.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> assessment@nifl.gov<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Assessment 1137] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Forrest:<br>
<br>
The approach works for our program because we are a Spanish speaking community
where we can pretty much teach native language literacy. It would be tougher to
implement in other communities with a mixture of immigrants. <br>
<br>
Regarding progress, the majority of our students start at an average 6 grade
education in Mexico and have been out of school for a while. Most of our
students are migrant/agricultural workers. It takes approximately a year to a
year and 1/2 for them to earn a GED in Spanish. Our lowest level student had a
2nd grade education and earned her GED within 21/2 years. She was very
motivated. If they have above 6 grade education most complete a GED within a
year. Below six grade it takes between one and two years. <br>
<br>
Problem with ESL is that students tend to get lost in ESL systems. Most ESL
programs don't provide an outcome that has validity beyond the particular ESL
program unless it is a credit college program. So, students will enroll for a
few months to a few years of ESL and then stop and will not really have much
more than a certificate that states that they were in ESL. Unless they get
immersed in an English speaking environment, if they don't continue in a
program they end up forgetting what they learn and starting again in a
different ESL program. <br>
<br>
With WIA/NRS, there is no incentive to move students beyond a few levels
because satisfactory progress is measured by students progressing form literacy
ESL to beginning ESL. Students may progress a few levels of ESL, the
program shows progress and the students eventually stop attending. They often
reappear in another ESL program starting at the lowest level. I doubt that
there are any programs in the entire country that can show that they had ESL
students that started in literacy ESL and progressed through all the levels and
earned a GED in English. There may be examples of a few students but they
will be statistically insignificant. <br>
<br>
I am not arguing that there is no value in ESL instruction. However, there is
no value in the way the system measures progress. It does so through
standardized testing that measures a limited range of academic skills and has
little value to the students. So, the teachers are caught between teaching the
students valuable things that may impact their life (such as health, immigration,
legal rights, etc) and making sure that they show progress in the BEST Plus or
whatever else. The pressure of the teachers to help the students show progress
in these tests before they drop, prevents them from teaching the meaningful
things that people like Heide Wrigley, Elsa Auerbach, Rimma Rudd and others
advocate for. I know that some teachers make the compromise between trying to
mix BEST progress with meaningful knowledge. However, it is tough. Especially
since the only measure of progress is the BEST plus. Also, "bringing
literacy to life" and "making meaning making change" are very
difficult things to do unless teachers are trained extensively in this, and
devote their entire efforts to do this sort of stuff and have the right
combination of knowledge, skills and abilities. Mixing this stuff with BEST
plus is even harder and most cannot do this. <br>
<br>
Anyways, I have a meeting and I am late.<br>
<br>
Andres<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Forrest Chisman <forrest@crosslink.net><br>
To: 'The Assessment Discussion List' <assessment@nifl.gov><br>
Sent: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 9:59 am<br>
Subject: [Assessment 1135] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_77507c8b-ff7e-4192-a06b-f15b68e6f327">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Andres,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This is a fascinating approach. Do you apply it to all of your ESL
students, or just the ones at the Literacy Level. It would seem to take a long
time for students to advance through Spanish Literacy, the Spanish GED, and
THEN ESL. Does it? What percentage of students who start down this track
eventually transition to college? And can you say more about the policy
barriers you mention? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What do other folks think about the design Andres describes?
Have you tried any part of it? Would it work for you? If not, why not?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Forrest </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a> [<a
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov?">mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:andresmuro@aol.com">andresmuro@aol.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Assessment 1129] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Problem
is that in many ESL people are placed in ESL classes based on an English
placement multiple choice test. A student with advanced education in L1 and one
with little education in L1 may know very little English and they may both be
placed in the same level. The student with advance education will progress much
faster than the one with little education. The advanced L1 student will
understand concepts like sentence, paragraph, verb, subject, direct object,
adjective, composition and essay readily. The one with with little education
will need to understand these concepts. It takes a while for people to master
these concepts. A highly educated L2 learner will likely progress faster
academically in a second language than a fluent native speaker of that
language with limited academic education, for the same reason. This is observed
regularly in universities all over the US. highly educated foreign students who
acqu ired English as L2 recently will do better than their English speaking
counterparts in academic tasks in English. Jim Cummins has articulated this
clearly with his BICS and CALPS. <br>
<br>
In our program at El Paso Community College we have found evidence of this. We
stopped doing literacy ESL a while back for this reason. The college has an
academic ESL program. Instead of doing ESL literacy we started offering Spanish
Literacy and GED many years ago since the vast majority of our students are
Spanish speakers. Once our students acquire their Spanish GED they transition
into the ESL program and do better than those students who don't have L1
academic skills. Even if takes them a while to acquire the L1 literacy, they
will do better. Those with no L1 literacy often stay in ESL forever and they
drop out, start again in another program, drop out and continue the same
pattern. I think that this happens because of the mixture of academically ready
students and those that are not ready, since most ESL programs focus on
traditional academics. For L1 low literacy students to be able to progress in
L2 there has to be a program specifically designed for them that teache s
skills in L2 in new and innovative ways without interference from academically
skilled L1 students. Right now we don't have a system that systematically does
this, and the WIA/NRS system prevents this form happening.<br>
<br>
Hope that this makes sense,<br>
<br>
Andres</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jackie Coelho <<a href="mailto:jackie.coelho@gmail.com">jackie.coelho@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: The Assessment Discussion List <<a href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</a>><br>
Sent: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 5:01 am<br>
Subject: [Assessment 1128] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_96af18bb-5d60-413f-866a-f7c0bfadc946">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Forrest,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> I like the idea of separate classes for those
with a literacy background and those without. These two groups have such
different needs. Having both in the class make it difficult for a teacher to
meet the needs of either group well and I find that often the stronger students
dominate the class, and their drive push the teacher forward. If the instructor
does not keep up with the students who are learning at a faster rate, they often
become frustrated and leave or mentally check out. However, if the instructor
keeps up with those students, the others are unable to keep up and they get
frustrated. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out.
And regardless of how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Jackie<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote>On 2/5/08, <b>Forrest Chisman</b>
<<a href="mailto:forrest@crosslink.net">forrest@crosslink.net</a>> wrote:</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>To all of you
who commented on level of prior education as a factor in student performance:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Everyone with
whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more highly educated students do
better in terms of persistence, learning gains, and transitions. And
learning theory would lead us to expect this. Regrettably we found very little
hard data about how much difference prior education makes, because too few
programs track the level of prior education of their students and correlate it
with outcomes. DO any of you do this? That is, do you have any data on HOW MUCH
difference level of prior education makes? Or any strong impressions? And are
there "cut points" in prior education that seem to make a difference
-- e.g. students who are completely illiterate, students who at least reached
high school, high school graduates, college graduates, etc. -- or is
level of prior education pretty much of a continuum?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>More
importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between highly educated
students and those with less prior education? Presumably students with very low
levels of education are more likely end up in the lower level ESL courses
(Literacy or Low-Beginning levels) why are (almost by definition) in the
business of teaching basic literacy and sometimes math. Why isn't this enough?
In your experience, does the "gap" exist at these levels too, or mainly
at higher levels? At any levels, would it be desirable to place less highly
educated students in separate classes from those with more education and adjust
the curriculum/support systems for them accordingly? Some programs have tried
"native language literacy" or the Spanish GED. What has been the
experience of any of you with these approaches? Any other ideas? IS there an
adult ESL equivalent of "bi-lingual education" that should be tried? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>It seems to me
that we need to come up with better ideas. Because the people who study
immigration tell us that the level of education of immigrants has been falling.
And if Immigration Reform mandates large numbers of undocumented people to
"learn English" (whatever that means), ESL programs may be swamped
with students who have very little education in their native countries and too
little money to serve them. So anyone who has any ideas about how to
bridge this "education gap" could help us a lot by posting ideas
about how to close it on this discussion list.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Forrest Chisman</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Vice President</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>CAAL</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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border-color:-moz-use-text-color'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:Tina_Luffman@yc.edu">Tina_Luffman@yc.edu</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM<br>
<span class=q><b>To:</b> The Assessment Discussion List</span><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Hi Jackie,</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thank you for this information. I believe this
research must be what my former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for
bilingual education in the K-12 school system.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Tina</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Tina Luffman<br>
Coordinator, Developmental Education<br>
Verde Valley Campus<br>
928-634-6544<br>
<a href="mailto:tina_luffman@yc.edu">tina_luffman@yc.edu</a></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>"Jackie Coelho"
<<a href="mailto:jackie.coelho@gmail.com">jackie.coelho@gmail.com</a>></span></b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt'> </span><br>
<span style='font-size:7.5pt'>Sent by: <a
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>02/05/2008 11:13 AM</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt'>Please respond to<br>
The Assessment Discussion List <<a href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>"The Assessment
Discussion List" <<a href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</a>></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>[Assessment 1108] Re:
{Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Hi Tina,</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This has been researched already and
is the basis for the arguement in</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>favor of bilingual education, a good idea
that was not implemented in</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the best way. For many years people
have known that a good foundation</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>in literacy in the first language
will facilitate learning in a second</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>or third language.</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Another interesting twist is the
existence of languages that are not written.</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jackie</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>On 2/5/08, <a
href="mailto:Tina_Luffman@yc.edu">Tina_Luffman@yc.edu</a> <<a
href="mailto:Tina_Luffman@yc.edu">Tina_Luffman@yc.edu</a>> wrote:</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Hi list members,</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> My experience teaching ELAA students
in the GED class is similar to that of</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Gail. If the student has a solid
educational background in the country they</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> came from in their native
language, they tend to advance rather quickly and</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> get their GED. Those coming with
6th grade educations from their country or</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> lower tend to stay in the GED
class for years and do not make much</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> advancement.</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> This experience relates well to
research done among Native American tribes</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> teaching them English. Those
Native Americans who were first taught literacy</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> skills in their own tongue
learned English much quicker than those who tried</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> to learn literacy skills in
English without that background in their own</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> tongue. I also found similar
problems when I was learning Spanish. The</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> concepts I could mentally
translate from English to Spanish were much easier</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> to grasp and learn than those I
didn't know in English. Perhaps this is</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> something deserving more
research.</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Tina</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Tina Luffman</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Coordinator, Developmental
Education</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Verde Valley Campus</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> 928-634-6544</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <a
href="mailto:tina_luffman@yc.edu">tina_luffman@yc.edu</a></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> -----<a
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a>
wrote: -----</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To: "The Assessment
Discussion List" <<a href="mailto:assessment@nifl.gov">assessment@nifl.gov</a>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> From: "Gail Burnett"
<<a href="mailto:gburnett@sanford.org">gburnett@sanford.org</a>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Sent by: <a
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Subject: [Assessment 1104]
{Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Comments?!</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Warning: This message has had
one or more attachments removed</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Warning: (not named).</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Warning: Please read the
"AttachmentWarning.txt" attachment(s) for more</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> information.</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> In our small adult education
program, my experience (just about three years)</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> is that students with solid
educational backgrounds advance, particularly if</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> they're not working too many
hours. Those who advance the slowest, if at</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> all, are immigrants who are
barely literate in their first language. I would</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> say that lack of education is a
bigger factor than lack of time; a student</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> who works full-time and is
exhausted often will still succeed because he/she</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> is familiar with academic work,
and is goal-oriented. What we do is try to</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> get our low-level students to
come up with goals, but that's a hard concept</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> in a second language.</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> This does not mean that the
factors mentioned in the research don't play a</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained
teachers (transitioned from</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> another career, got trained
mainly through workshops rather than classes).</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> My skill level very well may
contribute to students' slow advancement. It's</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> hard for small adult education
programs to get highly skilled ESL teachers.</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> The pay is low and there are no
benefits. But my program is encouraging me</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> to get extra training and has me
on a plan of improvement. I think we're</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> making some progress.</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Does this address any of the
issues? And am I submitting it right?</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> ________________________________</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> From: <a
href="mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov">assessment-bounces@nifl.gov</a> on
behalf of Marie Cora</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To: <a
href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Subject: [Assessment 1103] No
Questions or Comments?!</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Hello everyone,</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> I'm so surprised! No one
has anything to comment on regarding your</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> program's effectiveness at
helping ESL students advance?? I was very</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> curious to know if subscribers
experience the same types of issues that Dr.</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Chisman and Dr. Crandall found
in their research: a lack of intensity of</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> instruction/few protocols for
transitioning students/few opportunities for</span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> professional development.</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> What are the issues in your
program that you feel inhibit the ESL student</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> from advancing? What do
you try to do about that?</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Please post your questions and
comments now.</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Thanks!</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Marie Cora</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Assessment Discussion List
Moderator</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Marie Cora</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <a
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com">marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com</a></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <</span></tt><a
href="mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com"><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>mailto:marie.cora@hotspurpartners.com></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List
Moderator</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> </span></tt></a><a
href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank"><tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</span></tt><span
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> This email and any files
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> National Institute for Literacy</span></tt><span
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subscription settings, please go to</span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
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style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</span></tt><span
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Email delivered to
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> -------------------------------</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> National Institute for Literacy</span></tt><span
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Assessment mailing list</span></tt><span
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Assessment@nifl.gov</span></tt><span
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Email delivered to
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</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>></span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-------------------------------</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>National Institute for Literacy</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Assessment mailing list</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Assessment@nifl.gov</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
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subscription settings, please go to </span></tt></a><a
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style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Email delivered to
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
-------------------------------<br>
National Institute for Literacy<br>
Assessment mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a><br>
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to <a
href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a><br>
Email delivered to <a href="mailto:jackie.coelho@gmail.com">jackie.coelho@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_96af18bb-5d60-413f-866a-f7c0bfadc946"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>-------------------------------</span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
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<br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:
50%'><tt><span style='color:black'>National Institute for Literacy</span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>
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-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:
50%'><tt><span style='color:black'>Assessment mailing list</span></tt><span
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-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:
50%'><tt><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a></span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:
50%'><tt><span style='color:black'>To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to </span></tt><span
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<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:
50%'><tt><span style='color:black'><a
href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment" target="_blank">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a></span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-attachment:scroll;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:
50%'><tt><span style='color:black'>Email delivered to <a
href="mailto:andresmuro@aol.com">andresmuro@aol.com</a></span></tt><o:p></o:p></pre></div>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_77507c8b-ff7e-4192-a06b-f15b68e6f327"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>-------------------------------</span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'>National Institute for Literacy</span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'>Assessment mailing list</span></tt><span style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'><a href="mailto:Assessment@nifl.gov">Assessment@nifl.gov</a></span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'>To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to </span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
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<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'><a href="http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment"
target="_blank">http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment</a></span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'>Email delivered to <a href="mailto:andresmuro@aol.com">andresmuro@aol.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-top:7.5pt;text-align:center'>
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out the new <a
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