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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mary Jane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It’s very clear. Thank you SO much for sharing it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Forrest<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
assessment-bounces@nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mary Jane Jerde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 08, 2008 3:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Assessment Discussion List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Assessment 1198] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>As for higher education, you can see the note toward the
bottom. My experience has been mostly in grant funded classes with a civics
orientation, but even in the medical terminology class for medical professionals,
I still found myself relying on them. In fact, it seemed even more important
for some of the highly educated immigrants to learn the team ethic. <br>
<br>
First, this was much easier when I was teaching in an Even Start program with
sixteen contact hours weekly. (There were students with three to nine years of
school, with an occasional misplaced college graduate. I have taught college
educated students in the refugee program and at the community college.) Ideally
the beginning ESL students took leveled classes at the community college one or
two mornings a week, which gave everyone a break. This did not always happen
due to the need for students to be in long enough to get placed in classes for
the next term, but for those who committed themselves, it was an important
asset. Bless the contact folks at the college who put up with my requests for
class space. <br>
<br>
Second, my implicit expectations of student free production were (a la
Barb Denman) for the lower levels to produce words (identify same/different and
labels), the higher beginners to produce phrases, the intermediates were held
to the higher standard of actual grammatical production. So in a given whole
group activity the students learned that they were held to different standards
as they progressed. They really valued the progression as a form of promotion.<br>
<br>
The two explicit rules I had was to help each other and to work in English.
After a week to adjust, I held them responsible to hold to these rules. Of
course, having some students buy into them was really critical. In thirteen
years, I have only had two students completely abdicate the rules, one a highly
educated man and the other was a woman with minimal education from different
areas of the world. <br>
<br>
With four hours a day, it was easy to divide up time into segments for various
skills and to have realistic whole group activities. I frequently made
worksheets to cover an area of confusion as a group follow-up, though it could
go from lower to higher levels. <br>
<br>
The basic conversational tool is for one student to ask another a question or
give a cue. The second gives a response and asks someone else, "Do you
agree?" The third party agrees or disagrees and can explain why. There
ensues a discussion until there's agreement or they call me in. (I don't like
to answer questions until the student has asked another student first, no
matter how the students' skill levels are perceived.) They must take turns in
this routine and everyone must participate in turn. This is a powerful
principle used in cooperative learning. If a student is stuck, he or she
doesn't have to guess an answer; it's always all right to ask another student
at the beginning of an exercise. This can be used going over homework, a
reading, practicing grammar or pronunciation or whatever in class. It also
teaching the students to be independent of the instructor and allows them to
function as adults. <br>
<br>
What this also does is show the students that no matter their educational
background or other skills they can truly work and learn from each other. I
have had it work with those with up to some high school experience in their
country and more if they have little English. Students with a good bit of
academic English in their own country tend to require more proof that they
benefit from the experience, but once they're caught in the wrong or a less
educated student who is working comes up with the right answer, they usually
can understand the benefits. <br>
<br>
I hope that this is clear. <br>
<br>
Mary Jane<br>
<br>
<b><i>Forrest Chisman <forrest@crosslink.net></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mary Jane,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks for this input. I gather that all of your classes mix
students with different levels of higher education. Is that right? If so, how
do you manage to find the time (or manage the class) so that you can provide
this extra help to students with low levels of prior education? About how many
hours/week do your classes meet? Also, I think we’d all like to hear some
examples of the cooperation and teamwork you mention, and its results. This
seems to be an important, but too little documented theme.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Forrest </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
assessment-bounces@nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mary Jane Jerde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Assessment Discussion List; Jodi Crandall<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Assessment 1164] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I was going to write a very similar message based on my
experience working under Barbara Denman at the erstwhile refugee program in
Prince George's County, Maryland. <br>
<br>
Now that I work in a community college with ESL classes that span the lowest
level ESL and academic experience to the higher levels of college credit
classes, my experience has grown. The principles of both cooperation and
teamwork in learning and separation by level still hold true. Students benefit
from knowing that they need to help each other. It's part of our culture,
surprise, surprise. The institution where I work has six levels of class for
the various language skills, so there's lots of separation by level. <br>
<br>
What I have found myself doing with high beginning students and intermediates
with less education in their home countries is preparing them for the
grammatical terms that will come their way if they continue to take ESL
classes. I also work diligently with them to have a firm grasp of basic English
grammar, especially verbs. This will help them at work or if they decide to
begin ABE classes, where the grammar focus is not normally on their kind of
grammar issues. <br>
<br>
Mary Jane Jerde<br>
ESL Instructor<br>
Howard Community College<br>
<br>
<b><i>"Sadan, Noa" <Noa.Sadan@montgomerycollege.edu></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Years ago, the Montgomery County Refugee Training Program
(Montgomery<br>
College, Silver Spring, MD)had highly educated people with no English,<br>
in class with literacy level students. It was certainly difficult<br>
meeting the needs of all students, but in this intensive 20-hours/week<br>
program, a tremendous mutual respect was fostered between the groups.<br>
Typically, the highly educated students raced ahead with reading and<br>
writing, while the literacy students sped ahead with oral language. The<br>
Somali mother of nine would say to the Russian engineer, "I wish I could<br>
read and write like you!", while the Russian woman would reply, "I
wish<br>
I could speak like you."<br>
<br>
All this ended with a slightly different solution. The Refugee Center,<br>
then under the direction of Donna Kinerney, divided that school day into<br>
separate Listening,Reading and "Homeroom" classes. Homerooom took in
all<br>
skills, plus the introduction to the American workplace. This model was<br>
in place when we began to get World English speakers who were not<br>
literate. It provided a solution in which they could study in a<br>
literacy-level reading/writing class, and interact in a higher level<br>
Listening and Homeroom class. <br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: assessment-bounces@nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov]<br>
On Behalf Of JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall<br>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 3:10 PM<br>
To: The Assessment Discussion List<br>
Subject: [Assessment 1139] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or<br>
Comments?!<br>
<br>
Jackie and Forrest,<br>
<br>
I think most large programs separate literacy level students from others<br>
who are at a beginning level. I know that back in the 1980s when there<br>
were large refugee ESL programs, several community colleges created<br>
parallel ESL classes for the beginning levels and even into intermediate<br>
levels, with one set of classes for students with limited literacy or<br>
prior schooling and another for more educated students. The reason was<br>
that the students with less education made slower progress. Some of<br>
this is undoubtedly due to the way in which we teach English (requiring<br>
literacy), but it is also because students need to become accustomed to<br>
attending classes, learning to hold and use a pen or pencil, and a wide<br>
range of basic skills that come with being a student in a class.<br>
<br>
Those of you who have separate classes for those who need literacy:<br>
Can<br>
you tell us what kind of classes or program you provide?<br>
<br>
Those who teach both literacy and more educated learners in the same<br>
class: Can you let us know how you manage? What are some ways in which<br>
you accommodate both sets of needs?<br>
<br>
Jodi<br>
> Forrest,<br>
> I like the idea of separate classes for those with a literacy <br>
> background and those without. These two groups have such different <br>
> needs. Having both in the class make it difficult for a teacher to <br>
> meet the needs of either group well and I find that often the stronger<br>
<br>
> students dominate the class, and their drive push the teacher forward.<br>
<br>
> If the instructor does not keep up with the students who are learning <br>
> at a faster rate, they often become frustrated and leave or mentally <br>
> check out. However, if the instructor keeps up with those students, <br>
> the others are unable to keep up and they get frustrated.<br>
> I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out. And regardless<br>
<br>
> of how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.<br>
> Jackie<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2/5/08, Forrest Chisman wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> To all of you who commented on level of prior education as a factor <br>
>> in student performance:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Everyone with whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more <br>
>> highly educated students do better in terms of persistence, learning<br>
<br>
>> gains, and transitions. And learning theory would lead us to expect <br>
>> this.<br>
>> Regrettably<br>
>> we found very little hard data about how much difference prior <br>
>> education makes, because too few programs track the level of prior <br>
>> education of their students and correlate it with outcomes. DO any of<br>
<br>
>> you do this? That is, do you have any data on HOW MUCH difference <br>
>> level of prior education makes?<br>
>> Or<br>
>> any strong impressions? And are there "cut points" in prior
education<br>
<br>
>> that seem to make a difference -- e.g. students who are completely <br>
>> illiterate, students who at least reached high school, high school <br>
>> graduates, college graduates, etc. -- or is level of prior education<br>
<br>
>> pretty much of a continuum?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> More importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between <br>
>> highly educated students and those with less prior education? <br>
>> Presumably students with very low levels of education are more likely<br>
<br>
>> end up in the lower level ESL courses (Literacy or Low-Beginning <br>
>> levels) why are (almost by<br>
>> definition) in the business of teaching basic literacy and sometimes<br>
<br>
>> math.<br>
>> Why isn't this enough? In your experience, does the "gap"
exist at <br>
>> these levels too, or mainly at higher levels? At any levels, would it<br>
<br>
>> be desirable to place less highly educated students in separate <br>
>> classes from those with more education and adjust the <br>
>> curriculum/support systems for them accordingly? Some programs have <br>
>> tried "native language literacy" or the Spanish GED. What
has been <br>
>> the experience of any of you with these approaches? Any other ideas? <br>
>> IS there an adult ESL equivalent of "bi-lingual education"
that <br>
>> should be tried?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> It seems to me that we need to come up with better ideas. Because the<br>
<br>
>> people who study immigration tell us that the level of education of <br>
>> immigrants has been falling. And if Immigration Reform mandates large<br>
<br>
>> numbers of undocumented people to "learn English" (whatever
that <br>
>> means), ESL programs may be swamped with students who have very <br>
>> little education in their native countries and too little money to <br>
>> serve them. So anyone who has any ideas about how to bridge this <br>
>> "education gap" could help us a lot by posting ideas about
how to <br>
>> close it on this discussion list.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Forrest Chisman<br>
>><br>
>> Vice President<br>
>><br>
>> CAAL<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *From:* assessment-bounces@nifl.gov <br>
>> [mailto:assessment-bounces@nifl.gov]<br>
>> *On<br>
>> Behalf Of *Tina_Luffman@yc.edu<br>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM<br>
>> *To:* The Assessment Discussion List<br>
>> *Subject:* [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No <br>
>> Questions or Comments?!<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Hi Jackie,<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you for this information. I believe this research must be what <br>
>> my former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for bilingual <br>
>> education in the K-12 school system.<br>
>><br>
>> Tina<br>
>><br>
>> Tina Luffman<br>
>> Coordinator, Developmental Education<br>
>> Verde Valley Campus<br>
>> 928-634-6544<br>
>> tina_luffman@yc.edu<br>
>><br>
>> *"Jackie Coelho" * Sent by: <br>
>> assessment-bounces@nifl.gov<br>
>><br>
>> 02/05/2008 11:13 AM<br>
>><br>
>> Please respond to<br>
>> The Assessment Discussion List <br>
>><br>
>> To<br>
>><br>
>> "The Assessment Discussion List" <br>
>><br>
>> cc<br>
>><br>
>> Subject<br>
>><br>
>> [Assessment 1108] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or <br>
>> Comments?!<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Hi Tina,<br>
>><br>
>> This has been researched already and is the basis for the arguement <br>
>> in favor of bilingual education, a good idea that was not implemented<br>
<br>
>> in the best way. For many years people have known that a good <br>
>> foundation in literacy in the first language will facilitate learning<br>
<br>
>> in a second or third language.<br>
>><br>
>> Another interesting twist is the existence of languages that are not <br>
>> written.<br>
>><br>
>> Jackie<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 2/5/08, Tina_Luffman@yc.edu wrote:<br>
>> > Hi list members,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > My experience teaching ELAA students in the GED class is similar
to<br>
>> that<br>
>> of<br>
>> > Gail. If the student has a solid educational background in the <br>
>> > country<br>
>> they<br>
>> > came from in their native language, they tend to advance rather<br>
>> quickly<br>
>> and<br>
>> > get their GED. Those coming with 6th grade educations from their<br>
>> country<br>
>> or<br>
>> > lower tend to stay in the GED class for years and do not make
much <br>
>> > advancement.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > This experience relates well to research done among Native
American<br>
>> tribes<br>
>> > teaching them English. Those Native Americans who were first
taught<br>
>> literacy<br>
>> > skills in their own tongue learned English much quicker than
those <br>
>> > who<br>
>> tried<br>
>> > to learn literacy skills in English without that background in <br>
>> > their<br>
>> own<br>
>> > tongue. I also found similar problems when I was learning
Spanish. <br>
>> > The concepts I could mentally translate from English to Spanish <br>
>> > were much<br>
>> easier<br>
>> > to grasp and learn than those I didn't know in English. Perhaps <br>
>> > this<br>
>> is<br>
>> > something deserving more research.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Tina<br>
>> > Tina Luffman<br>
>> > Coordinator, Developmental Education Verde Valley Campus<br>
>> > 928-634-6544<br>
>> > tina_luffman@yc.edu<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -----assessment-bounces@nifl.gov wrote: -----<br>
>> ><br>
>> > To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <br>
>> > From: "Gail Burnett" Sent by: <br>
>> > assessment-bounces@nifl.gov<br>
>> > Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM<br>
>> > Subject: [Assessment 1104] {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions
or<br>
<br>
>> > Comments?!<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed<br>
>> > Warning: (not named).<br>
>> > Warning: Please read the "AttachmentWarning.txt"
attachment(s) for<br>
>> more<br>
>> > information.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > In our small adult education program, my experience (just about <br>
>> > three<br>
>> years)<br>
>> > is that students with solid educational backgrounds advance,<br>
>> particularly if<br>
>> > they're not working too many hours. Those who advance the
slowest, <br>
>> > if<br>
>> at<br>
>> > all, are immigrants who are barely literate in their first <br>
>> > language. I<br>
>> would<br>
>> > say that lack of education is a bigger factor than lack of time;
a<br>
>> student<br>
>> > who works full-time and is exhausted often will still succeed <br>
>> > because<br>
>> he/she<br>
>> > is familiar with academic work, and is goal-oriented. What we do
is<br>
>> try<br>
>> to<br>
>> > get our low-level students to come up with goals, but that's a
hard<br>
>> concept<br>
>> > in a second language.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > This does not mean that the factors mentioned in the research
don't<br>
>> play<br>
>> a<br>
>> > part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained teachers <br>
>> > (transitioned<br>
>> from<br>
>> > another career, got trained mainly through workshops rather than<br>
>> classes).<br>
>> > My skill level very well may contribute to students' slow<br>
advancement.<br>
>> It's<br>
>> > hard for small adult education programs to get highly skilled ESL<br>
>> teachers.<br>
>> > The pay is low and there are no benefits. But my program is<br>
>> encouraging<br>
>> me<br>
>> > to get extra training and has me on a plan of improvement. I
think<br>
>> we're<br>
>> > making some progress.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Does this address any of the issues? And am I submitting it
right?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > ________________________________<br>
>> ><br>
>> > From: assessment-bounces@nifl.gov on behalf of Marie Cora<br>
>> > Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM<br>
>> > To: Assessment@nifl.gov<br>
>> > Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Hello everyone,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I'm so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding
your<br>
<br>
>> > program's effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? I was <br>
>> > very curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of <br>
>> > issues<br>
>> that<br>
>> Dr.<br>
>> > Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack of <br>
>> > intensity<br>
>> of<br>
>> > instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few <br>
>> > opportunities<br>
>> for<br>
>> > professional development.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL<br>
>> student<br>
>> > from advancing? What do you try to do about that?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Please post your questions and comments now.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Thanks!<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Marie Cora<br>
>> > Assessment Discussion List Moderator<br>
>> ><br>
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<br>
--<br>
JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall<br>
Professor, Education Department<br>
Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture Coordinator,<br>
Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual Education<br>
University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC) 1000 Hilltop Circle,<br>
Baltimore, MD 21250<br>
ph: 410-455-2313/2376 fax: 410-455-8947/1880<br>
email: crandall@umbc.edu<br>
www.umbc.edu/llc/<br>
www.umbc.edu/esol/<br>
www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html<br>
<br>
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Email delivered to mjjerdems@yahoo.com<o:p></o:p></p>
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