It is not about what we would like you saying or not. It is about what
effective pedagogical practice. When you teach people in their native
language you don't deny the other language. You can do both. Programs
that do native language literacy also do second language. Bilingual
programs are most effective. In fact, native English speakers would
benefit from learning a second language too.

 

Moreover, it is very difficult for people to learn a subject in a
language that they don't know about. You cannot learn math or history in
Chinese if you don't' know how to speak Chinese. On the other hand, if
you learn math and history in English and then you learn Chinese, you
will also know math and history in Chinese. 

 

Bilingual models simply teach students academic skills in their native
language. That does not mean that they don't teach English.  By the time
children have some fluency in English; they also have academic
background on the subjects that they were covering in their native
language. So, when they transition into academic subjects in English,
they have not fallen behind. 

 

The model that explains this, and I have posted this in the past is
called the BICS-CALPS model by Cummins. BICS= Basic interpersonal
communication skills. CALPS=Cognitive academic language proficiency
skills. In L1 you can go from BICS to CALPS. However, you cannot go from
BICS in L1 to CALPS in L2. However, you can go from CALPS in L1 to CALPS
in L2.

 

This is the reason that students that come from other countries and have
academic skills in their native language easily learn academics in
English. Those that have not mastered academic proficiency in their
native language have a difficult time learning it in a second language.
If you don't know in you native language that a verb is an action word,
an adjective is a descriptor, and a noun is a name, it is going to be
very difficult to get it in a different language. On the other hand, if
you know what these things are, it is going to be easy to grasp them in
another language. 

 

We have a Spanish GED program. Once our students complete, we send them
to an academic ESL program. They tend to do very well. On the other
hand, those that don't have academic skills in their native language do
very poorly in the ESL program.

 

Andres

 

 

________________________________

From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea Wilder
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:19 AM
To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1442] Re: drop-outs

 

Hi Andre, Daphne, 

 

When school kids are taught in their home language, not the school
language, then I would say that they are being denied knowledge of the
mainstream language. Some would not like me saying this, doubtless, but
it is the way I do see it, after having listened to and read many
opinions. 

 

Suppose those pregnant teenagers came to school, were educated together,
and learned how to work with their children within a school setting?
Other places do this, why not every place? 

 

I read in newspapers small vignettes of schools that work for poor
kids--they do the things for the children that parents who have more
money do for their own children, automatically. The corders of schools
have to be elastic, including in their working day these additional
tasks. 

 

Small schools that have succeeded: 1) they are small and their classes
are small, 2) the teachers are knowledgeable in their subject areas. 3)
teachers check in with family members frequently, keeping strong ties
between students , parents, and school, 4 ) teachers assume that
children can learn, 5) there is discipline and rules and expectations
about behavior. 

 

When you start with small children there is not a disposition that is
anti-school--you're starting with day care and what used to be called
"nursery school." 

 

Are there people on this list serv who have managed, created, or worked
in schools with this model? And that enroll teenage mothers as part of a
normal high school experience? 

 

Andrea 

 

On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Muro, Andres wrote: 

	 

	Hi Daphne: 

	  

	Actually, this was one of the things that Allan Quigley focused
on. He did studies and found that many k-12 students have a poor
disposition towards traditional learning environments. He called them
resistors. these are the students that end up dropping out. When they
come to ABE contexts, they still have a poor disposition towards those
environments that tend to repeat the same format as the k-12 system. 

	  

	Ogbu also studied resistance of "involuntary minorities" towards
traditional learning environments. he argued that "Involuntary
minorities", or those that have a lower social status in a society (in
California Chicanos and blacks) are forced by schools to adopt that
cultural patterns of the hegemonic group. If they do they will succeed
in school but they will betray their own. So, minorities are caught
between acting "whitie" and succeeding in school, but being rejected but
their own peers, or continue to belong among their peers and failing in
school.   

	  

	Jim Cummins suggested additive educational models, where
students continued to learn cultural and linguistic practices of their
peers as well as the hegemonic practices. In Oakland, it was proposed
that kids learn the African American Language System along with standard
English, but many were offended by that. In many kinders and elementary
charter schools in California they are teaching Spanish, along with
Mexican history, culture, etc. many of those school have received bomb
threats, insults, etc. In fact, there is a radio show that has targeted
those schools and spews all kinds of racist talk. 

	  

	There is a charter school that I believe that is called
"Semillas del Corazon". It is in a poor mostly Latin neighborhood. I
think that you can find it on youtube. they have recordings of the
threats that they get, and they've had to close.  

	  

	Andres  

	 

	From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne
Greenberg 

	Sent: Sun 11/25/2007 6:52 PM 

	To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov 

	Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1439] drop-outs 

	 

	Andrea raises an important point-" we should interview the
drop-outs to see why they have dropped out." Does anyone know of studies
which were conducted with high school drop outs, asking them why they
dropped out of school? Perhaps some of you have asked your learners this
question and want to contribute what you have learned. What I have heard
are issues related to gangs, pregnancy, illness, moving around a lot. I
have never heard anyone specifically state anything about the
educational system, even though most of the learners that I have
interacted with read below a fifth grade level, and therefore did not
benefit from the school system way before they dropped out. It would be
interesting if anyone knows of any studies that focus on this type of
issue. 

	Daphne 

	 

	>>> Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> 11/25/07 8:43 PM

>>> 


	Hi Liz, 

	 

	It is late (for me) Sunday, so I will just say that we should
interview 

	the drop-outs to see why they have dropped out. Also--kids know
school 

	is important,, it is a cultural norm;  often pleasing the
parents is in 

	there too.  No one wants to fail. 

	 

	Andrea 

	 

	On Nov 25, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Liz Hawkins wrote: 

	 

	> I think one of the problems with public education is that we
often 

	> assume kids are fundamentally different from adults.  We
assume that 

	> kids should and will go to school and try to succeed because
they are 

	> required to do so and need to do so in order to get along in
life; 

	> whereas adults presumably seek out education by choice.
However, 

	> making education compulsory for kids does not change the fact
that 

	> students (of any age) will choose what they want to learn and
how hard 

	> they will work to learn it based on a variety of factors.  

	> 

	> Andre brought up the cultural/social issues that exist, and I 

	> certainly agree.  Students who see school as a place which
offends and 

	> threatens their cultural ideals will struggle there.  When I
taught in 

	> the public school system in S. Atlanta, I frequently had high
school 

	> students (or even younger) who really needed to work (not in
the 

	> future, but right then) in order to help support their
families.  

	> Although  I tried to be sensitive to these students' needs, I
found 

	> myself insisting that education should be a priority, and in
doing so 

	> without offering them any real solutions to their present
dilemmas, 

	> alienating them.  At school, they are told they must succeed
in school 

	> in order to have a hope for a better, more economically
comfortable 

	> life, but that does not make sense to a child who knows she
might not 

	> get to eat this weekend, that her little brother may not have
shoes to 

	> wear this winter, or that her own baby will have no one to
look after 

	> it if she goes to school every day and does all her homework
instead 

	> of finding ways to make money.  Certainly these situations are
not 

	> fair, but they are real, and if we want to improve education,
we need 

	> to address these problems in the community as well. 

	> 

	> Dana mentioned the focus on testing as a fundamental problem
in school 

	> systems, and this too is absolutely true, but the testing
issue is 

	> representative of the same underlying issue--students fail to
see a 

	> lack of relevance between what they are being told to learn
and what 

	> they need to survive.  They do not understand (and neither do
many 

	> teachers) why being able to pass a standardized test is
important, and 

	> yet being able to pass the test is the primary incentive they
are 

	> presented with as motivation to learn the material.  Having
taught 9th 

	> and 10th graders, I know that there are many teachers who
strive to 

	> make these connections and show their students how getting an 

	> education is truly, really, immediately and in the long-term, 

	> beneficial.  I was one of them, but honestly, more often than
not I 

	> had a hard time seeing the relevance myself. 

	> 

	> So the issue remains that public school at present is not
relevant to 

	> everyone.  I think that technical education programs,
accelerated/dual 

	> enrollment programs, and magnet schools are all steps in the
right 

	> direction toward making sure there are different types  of
education 

	> available to meet different people's needs, but we need to do
more.  

	> If we can figure out what people really need and try to give
it to 

	> them, perhaps parents and communities will again rally behind
the 

	> educational system, providing local support and encouraging
political 

	> changes at the state and national levels as well.  Rather than


	> continuing to treat the symptoms of a poor educational system
by 

	> prescribing medications (such as No Child Left Behind), many
of which 

	> themselves have heinous side effects, we need to pull out the
scalpel 

	> and operate on the core issues. 

	> 

	> -Liz 

	> 

	> 

	> Dana Donohue <dana.donohue at gmail.com> wrote:Hi Andre and
Andrea. 

	>> Although I have never been a school teacher, I currently work
on a 

	>> reading research project in several elementary schools in
Atlanta. I 

	>> was curious about your statement, Andrea, that we still need
to come 

	>> to an agreement about what the problems in the schools are.
Excuse my 

	>> naivety, but is there still no consensus? Here are some of
the major 

	>> problems that I have seen and have discussed with teachers.
First 

	>> (and probably foremost), the focus on testing creates a lot
of 

	>> apprehension and fear that if they (the classes and/or
schools) 

	>> perform poorly, more of their funding will be taken away.
Second, 

	>> there appears to be a lot of variability in the skills and
expertise 

	>> between both schools and teachers. I'm guessing that this,
too, may 

	>> stem from the funding issue. Lastly, I think that especially
in the 

	>> poorer areas, there lacks that important bond between the
schools and 

	>> the parents. These bonds may encourage children to stay
engaged in 

	>> the learning process. I suppose that a good place to start to
fix 

	>> these problems would be a push by educators to overhaul or do
away 

	>> with No Child Left Behind. Of course, I'm not a teacher and
so I am 

	>> curious about what teachers think about how to fix the myriad
of 

	>> issues that hinder children's education. 

	>>  

	>> Dana 

	>> 

	>>  

	>> On 11/24/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:
Andre-- 

	>>> 

	>>> I understand what you are saying.  I wrote what I did
because I think 

	>>> there is enough experience and brain power on this list serv
and 

	>>> others 

	>>> to light up a good-sized city.  Where I live, school boards
get 

	>>> elected. They are supposed to be the link between the school
and us, 

	>>> and they are answerable to us--us meaning the people who
elected 

	>>> them. 

	>>> Here, the "us" are the extremely knowledgeable members of
this list 

	>>> serv.  We know the consequences of school failure.  This is
useful 

	>>> knowledge, not only for the dropouts, but what may be behind
the drop 

	>>> outs.  I am convinced that groups of people with this
knowledge, in 

	>>> our 

	>>>  communities, can make a difference.   I used to be a school
teacher, 

	>>> too.  We first must come to some agreements as to what the
problems 

	>>> are, then prioritize and find out where to start. 

	>>> 

	>>> Andrea 

	>>> 

	>>> On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andre Whitmore wrote: 

	>>> 

	>>> > Andrea 

	>>> > I am a former school teacher and I believe that the school
system 

	>>> > in and of itself is the reason why so many students fail.
The 

	>>> > schooling process is designed to ensure that students are 

	>>> socialized 

	>>> > to acquire an American cultural identity, which for many
of the 

	>>> > students is an unrealistic goal for them. It has become
increasing 

	>>> > difficult for students to envisionhow they can actively
participate 

	>>> > and succeed in this culture. Jobs, occupations, and
success are no 

	>>> > longer consistent with education. The educational
requirements have 

	>>> > become too demanding and do not offer any guarantee for a
job. Many 

	>>> > minority students have observed how their family members
and 

	>>> people in 

	>>> > the community have sought education that leads to poverty
still. 

	>>> The 

	>>> > schooling process should offer students the opportunity
ability to 

	>>> > become socialized in their culture so that they can
associate real 

	>>> > significance to their education. furthermore, American
culture 

	>>> > singifies free market and free enterprise opportunities,
but the 

	>>>  > schooling process does not place emphasis on this aspect.
Most 

	>>> public 

	>>> > schools teach students to become apoorly trained labor
force that 

	>>> > remains dependent on the corporate structure. Simply put,
students 

	>>> > will continue to resist public education until education
in this 

	>>> > country receives a make-over. 

	>>> > Andre 

	>>> > ----- Original Message ---- 

	>>> > From: Andrea Wilder < andreawilder at comcast.net> 

	>>> > To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race 

	>>> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov> 

	>>> > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:29:06 PM 

	>>> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1429] Changing schools 

	>>> > 

	>>> > Hi everyone, 

	>>> > 

	>>> > I think it is really important to find out which types of
students 

	>>> in 

	>>> > our local schools aren't doing well and to change local
school 

	>>> behavior 

	>>> > so all students can succeed. 

	>>> > 

	>>> > Andrea 

	>>> > 

	>>> > ---------------------------------------------------- 

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