Daphne

Like Kate, or perhaps in ways other than those that Kate just describes -
you're making me think, again/harder, too.

Don't think I've thought it through carefully enough yet.  We  certainly
don't want to normalize violence.  And we do need to co-create safe space
and room for people to respond to whatever is being said in ways that allow
them to be heard.  

At first I'd thought of framing this around 'mean' or wrong things that
we've all done in different ways -  ways that we may have hurt others (with
or without intending to).  That, though. can start a thread of thought and
discussion that might not be productive and could be very counter
productive.

And there's the whole issue of what right we have as 'teachers' to judge
anyone.  Everyone makes judgements, but when we make judgements from our
teach positions, when/how do we invoke certain power behind our statements
and where does it end?  Would we want to know who the perpetrators in our
classes are if we don't know already?
As Kate mentions, in some communities, people already know who's done what
to whom.

I once taught a class with a man who was there on work release from prison.
I never knew what he'd done - only knew that I had to report his attendance.
This was over 20 years ago - long before we'd started talking about all of
this.  Would I have wanted to know? Have treated him differently?

Need to think on this and hope that others will join in - also want to
re-read your questions and Kate's more carefully.

thank you all for engaging.


> From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> Reply-To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>

> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:26:36 -0500

> To: <diversity at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [Diversity 284] Re: abusers in our classrooms

> 

> Janet,

> Thanks for sharing how you use the word "us" when in discussions about

> survivors. In my classrooms, as often as I can remember, I also try to use the

> word "us" when talking about diversity-whether it is about trauma, age,

> health, race, orientation issues, religion, spirituality, etc., etc.

> My question to you and to others who wish to join in-should we be using the

> word "us" when talking about perpetrators as well? What would be the

> consequences of that type of inclusion? Would we be "normalizing" perpetrating

> behavior? Would that be good or bad? On the one hand, by doing it-we may be

> helping to demystify the myth that only "others" can perpetrate-not our

> doctors, our teachers, our lawyers, our plumbers, our neighbors, etc., etc. If

> we begin to realize how common it is, maybe there will be more of a societal

> outrage to get it to stop, or at least have stricter laws against perpetrators

> of abuse. On the other hand, perhaps, by doing this we would make perpetrators

> feel too welcome in our classes. But on the other hand, many would argue that

> it is a teacher's job to make everyone feel as welcome as possible. But then

> again, many survivors need class as a safe place. To verbally suggest that

> there may be perpetrators in the classroom may be very triggering....

> I could go on and on. Thanks for engaging in this discussion!

> Daphne 

> 

>>>> "Isserlis, Janet" <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> 12/20/08 10:08 PM >>>

> Daphne and all

> 

> When I've worked with adult literacy practitioners who are addressing or

> thinking about topics of abuse, I frame part of the discussion by saying that

> I don't need to know who among us (I try always to use "us" when in

> discussions about survivors) may have survived some traumatic event, but I do

> know that I need to be mindful of behaviors/actions/language that can be

> damaging to anyone.  I talk about universal design (the curb cuts are good for

> wheelchairs and for shopping carts) ..  trying to make the point that

> *knowing* who it is among us may have had an experience of abuse or of trauma,

> we all need to be aware of treating one another with respect and care.

> 

> When you say:

> 

>> Would acknowledging the fact that we

>> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our classrooms

>> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more of an issue

>> that society can't ignore?

> 

> -- it makes me think about offering this as a possibility as well - that we

> may not know who among us has had experience as an abuser or as a victim, but

> we do know that in order for learning to occur, everyone needs to feel safe.

> 

> Much, though, to think about.  Not so sure about this last suggestion of mine.

> I do know that I've shared your thinking /wondering about people around us who

> have been perpetrators and/or victims.  It occurs to me not infrequently.

> 

> thanks for raising this.

> 

> Janet Isserlis

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

> Sent: Sat 12/20/2008 8:30 PM

> To: diversity at nifl.gov

> Subject: [Diversity 279] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>  

> Possibly, in the same way that we can all be scared by thinking about

> something that we don't like to think about. By the time this came up, it was

> almost the end of a semester. A climate had long been established of safety

> and trust. We already had had many numerous conversations about diversity, and

> about how we are all "the other" depending on the context. So I felt okay

> mentioning it and sharing my thoughts. I wouldn't have necessarily shared

> something like this on the first day of class!

> 

>>>> "Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt" <katherine.gotthardt at gmail.com> 12/20/08

>>>> 8:21 PM >>>

> Daphne, Do you think you scared people when you said you might have

> perpetrators in the class?  I know that would have freaked me right out if I

> were a student.  It's not something many of us like to think about.

> 

> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Daphne Greenberg

> <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>wrote:

> 

>> The recent request for textbooks on family violence has reminded me that I

>> have been meaning to share and seek feedback from this list regarding a

>> realization that I have had recently.

>> 

>> A few weeks ago, my graduate class on adult learning read an article which

>> talked about students and instructors sharing trauma in the classroom. This

>> sparked many reactions for students in my classroom and I shared the

>> following:

>> 

>> I have two minds about this topic. On the one hand, most instructors are

>> not counselors/therapists, and sharing about trauma in a class that is not

>> focused on that can be very triggering to survivors of abuse. In every

>> class, depending on how large the class is, there is guaranteed to be one or

>> more survivors of abuse, and therefore it may not be such a great idea. On

>> the other hand, until we start to talk openly about this, society can go on

>> pretending that it is not as common as it really is, and in a sense continue

>> to facilitate the occurrence of abuse because it is seen as something that

>> happens to "the other" and not a common day occurrence of so many people

>> that we come into contact with.

>> 

>> While I was saying the above, I said something like, due to the numbers in

>> this class I am sure that we have survivors of abuse. Based on the numbers,

>> I don't know if we have perpetrators of abuse, because I don't know the

>> statistics of the numbers of abusers in our society. But there is a

>> possibility that there is at least one "perpetrator" of abuse in this

>> class-because we like to have a myth around who is and can be a

>> perpetrator-but it is only a myth. Perpetrators can be well educated, they

>> can be friendly, they can be likable, etc., etc. They can be one of us. Just

>> like survivors are one of us.

>> 

>> The realization that I had after this class, was the deep understanding

>> that chances are abusers are amongst our very midst, not just in our

>> neighborhoods, but in our professional lives. At my most recent faculty

>> meeting of easily 200 or more people, I suddenly deeply realized that in

>> this audience there is a good chance that there is someone who could be a

>> child molester, a partner abuser, a rapist, etc., etc. I realized that out

>> of all the students that I have taught and will continue to come into

>> contact with, there will be someone who has or is perpetuating abuse. It

>> made me realize that just as there are survivors on this list, there may

>> also be perpetrators. These realizations hit me hard.

>> 

>> We often talk about the importance of realizing that some of our adult

>> literacy students may have endured or may be enduring violence. It seems

>> that we rarely talk about the fact that some of our adult literacy students

>> may have perpetuated or be currently perpetuating abuse. I wonder why this

>> is so. Is it easier to identify with survivors of abuse than it is to

>> identify with perpetrators of abuse? Would acknowledging the fact that we

>> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our classrooms

>> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more of an issue

>> that society can't ignore? What implications does it potentially have for

>> instruction in the adult literacy classroom?

>> 

>> Any thoughts?

>> 

>> Daphne

>> 

>> ----------------------------------------------------

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> 

> 

> 

> -- 

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> www.LuxuriousChoices.net

> 

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