There's a big piece missing, here--something about the reality of  
evil and what it can do--think of burn victims, visualize them, and  
then think what would be "appropriate" to say to them.  Wake up,  
people! I don't believe I am still in this conversation, but I am,  
after all this time, so I haven't given up the possibility of getting  
through.

I lead hike groups.  Last summer  2 bikes barreled through my group,  
making one person jump for the ditch.  One of the bikers said  "Why  
didn't you get out of my way?"  I held up my hand and said, "No, YOU  
were in the wrong!"  He didn't want to hear it.  My hikers were  
confused, I was not.  Teachers, please--you must label the  
behavior,end the confusion, take a stand, and get on with it.

Andrea

On Dec 22, 2008, at 4:31 PM, Shaewitz, Dahlia wrote:


> Hi all:

>

> Two things I feel are important enough to add.

>

> First, we are all capable of doing really terrible things.  I think

> forgiveness is an important topic to address. How do different people

> (or cultures) manage forgiveness? Rather than focus on the bad and  

> what

> terrible things people do.

>

> Second, in my thinking, all people who perpetrate violence have  

> suffered

> themselves. This is where victims & perpetrators (us and them) can  

> find

> a common bond--suffering is a shared experience, a human experience.

> Yes?

>

> Thanks for the opportunity for input.

>

> Best, Dahlia

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:diversity- 

> bounces at nifl.gov] On

> Behalf Of Janet Isserlis

> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:09 PM

> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [Diversity 288] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>

> Daphne

>

> Like Kate, or perhaps in ways other than those that Kate just  

> describes

> -

> you're making me think, again/harder, too.

>

> Don't think I've thought it through carefully enough yet.  We   

> certainly

> don't want to normalize violence.  And we do need to co-create safe

> space

> and room for people to respond to whatever is being said in ways that

> allow

> them to be heard.

>

> At first I'd thought of framing this around 'mean' or wrong things  

> that

> we've all done in different ways -  ways that we may have hurt others

> (with

> or without intending to).  That, though. can start a thread of thought

> and

> discussion that might not be productive and could be very counter

> productive.

>

> And there's the whole issue of what right we have as 'teachers' to  

> judge

> anyone.  Everyone makes judgements, but when we make judgements  

> from our

> teach positions, when/how do we invoke certain power behind our

> statements

> and where does it end?  Would we want to know who the perpetrators in

> our

> classes are if we don't know already?

> As Kate mentions, in some communities, people already know who's done

> what

> to whom.

>

> I once taught a class with a man who was there on work release from

> prison.

> I never knew what he'd done - only knew that I had to report his

> attendance.

> This was over 20 years ago - long before we'd started talking about  

> all

> of

> this.  Would I have wanted to know? Have treated him differently?

>

> Need to think on this and hope that others will join in - also want to

> re-read your questions and Kate's more carefully.

>

> thank you all for engaging.

>

>> From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

>> Reply-To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> <diversity at nifl.gov>

>> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:26:36 -0500

>> To: <diversity at nifl.gov>

>> Subject: [Diversity 284] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>>

>> Janet,

>> Thanks for sharing how you use the word "us" when in discussions  

>> about

>> survivors. In my classrooms, as often as I can remember, I also  

>> try to

> use the

>> word "us" when talking about diversity-whether it is about trauma,

> age,

>> health, race, orientation issues, religion, spirituality, etc., etc.

>> My question to you and to others who wish to join in-should we be

> using the

>> word "us" when talking about perpetrators as well? What would be the

>> consequences of that type of inclusion? Would we be "normalizing"

> perpetrating

>> behavior? Would that be good or bad? On the one hand, by doing it-we

> may be

>> helping to demystify the myth that only "others" can perpetrate-not

> our

>> doctors, our teachers, our lawyers, our plumbers, our neighbors,  

>> etc.,

> etc. If

>> we begin to realize how common it is, maybe there will be more of a

> societal

>> outrage to get it to stop, or at least have stricter laws against

> perpetrators

>> of abuse. On the other hand, perhaps, by doing this we would make

> perpetrators

>> feel too welcome in our classes. But on the other hand, many would

> argue that

>> it is a teacher's job to make everyone feel as welcome as possible.

> But then

>> again, many survivors need class as a safe place. To verbally suggest

> that

>> there may be perpetrators in the classroom may be very triggering....

>> I could go on and on. Thanks for engaging in this discussion!

>> Daphne

>>

>>>>> "Isserlis, Janet" <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> 12/20/08 10:08 PM >>>

>> Daphne and all

>>

>> When I've worked with adult literacy practitioners who are addressing

> or

>> thinking about topics of abuse, I frame part of the discussion by

> saying that

>> I don't need to know who among us (I try always to use "us" when in

>> discussions about survivors) may have survived some traumatic event,

> but I do

>> know that I need to be mindful of behaviors/actions/language that can

> be

>> damaging to anyone.  I talk about universal design (the curb cuts are

> good for

>> wheelchairs and for shopping carts) ..  trying to make the point that

>> *knowing* who it is among us may have had an experience of abuse  

>> or of

> trauma,

>> we all need to be aware of treating one another with respect and  

>> care.

>>

>> When you say:

>>

>>> Would acknowledging the fact that we

>>> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

> classrooms

>>> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more  

>>> of an

> issue

>>> that society can't ignore?

>>

>> -- it makes me think about offering this as a possibility as well -

> that we

>> may not know who among us has had experience as an abuser or as a

> victim, but

>> we do know that in order for learning to occur, everyone needs to  

>> feel

> safe.

>>

>> Much, though, to think about.  Not so sure about this last suggestion

> of mine.

>> I do know that I've shared your thinking /wondering about people

> around us who

>> have been perpetrators and/or victims.  It occurs to me not

> infrequently.

>>

>> thanks for raising this.

>>

>> Janet Isserlis

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

>> Sent: Sat 12/20/2008 8:30 PM

>> To: diversity at nifl.gov

>> Subject: [Diversity 279] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>>

>> Possibly, in the same way that we can all be scared by thinking about

>> something that we don't like to think about. By the time this came  

>> up,

> it was

>> almost the end of a semester. A climate had long been established of

> safety

>> and trust. We already had had many numerous conversations about

> diversity, and

>> about how we are all "the other" depending on the context. So I felt

> okay

>> mentioning it and sharing my thoughts. I wouldn't have necessarily

> shared

>> something like this on the first day of class!

>>

>>>>> "Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt" <katherine.gotthardt at gmail.com>

> 12/20/08

>>>>> 8:21 PM >>>

>> Daphne, Do you think you scared people when you said you might have

>> perpetrators in the class?  I know that would have freaked me right

> out if I

>> were a student.  It's not something many of us like to think about.

>>

>> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Daphne Greenberg

>> <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>wrote:

>>

>>> The recent request for textbooks on family violence has reminded me

> that I

>>> have been meaning to share and seek feedback from this list  

>>> regarding

> a

>>> realization that I have had recently.

>>>

>>> A few weeks ago, my graduate class on adult learning read an article

> which

>>> talked about students and instructors sharing trauma in the

> classroom. This

>>> sparked many reactions for students in my classroom and I shared the

>>> following:

>>>

>>> I have two minds about this topic. On the one hand, most instructors

> are

>>> not counselors/therapists, and sharing about trauma in a class that

> is not

>>> focused on that can be very triggering to survivors of abuse. In

> every

>>> class, depending on how large the class is, there is guaranteed  

>>> to be

> one or

>>> more survivors of abuse, and therefore it may not be such a great

> idea. On

>>> the other hand, until we start to talk openly about this, society  

>>> can

> go on

>>> pretending that it is not as common as it really is, and in a sense

> continue

>>> to facilitate the occurrence of abuse because it is seen as  

>>> something

> that

>>> happens to "the other" and not a common day occurrence of so many

> people

>>> that we come into contact with.

>>>

>>> While I was saying the above, I said something like, due to the

> numbers in

>>> this class I am sure that we have survivors of abuse. Based on the

> numbers,

>>> I don't know if we have perpetrators of abuse, because I don't know

> the

>>> statistics of the numbers of abusers in our society. But there is a

>>> possibility that there is at least one "perpetrator" of abuse in  

>>> this

>>> class-because we like to have a myth around who is and can be a

>>> perpetrator-but it is only a myth. Perpetrators can be well  

>>> educated,

> they

>>> can be friendly, they can be likable, etc., etc. They can be one of

> us. Just

>>> like survivors are one of us.

>>>

>>> The realization that I had after this class, was the deep

> understanding

>>> that chances are abusers are amongst our very midst, not just in our

>>> neighborhoods, but in our professional lives. At my most recent

> faculty

>>> meeting of easily 200 or more people, I suddenly deeply realized  

>>> that

> in

>>> this audience there is a good chance that there is someone who could

> be a

>>> child molester, a partner abuser, a rapist, etc., etc. I realized

> that out

>>> of all the students that I have taught and will continue to come  

>>> into

>>> contact with, there will be someone who has or is perpetuating  

>>> abuse.

> It

>>> made me realize that just as there are survivors on this list, there

> may

>>> also be perpetrators. These realizations hit me hard.

>>>

>>> We often talk about the importance of realizing that some of our

> adult

>>> literacy students may have endured or may be enduring violence. It

> seems

>>> that we rarely talk about the fact that some of our adult literacy

> students

>>> may have perpetuated or be currently perpetuating abuse. I wonder  

>>> why

> this

>>> is so. Is it easier to identify with survivors of abuse than it  

>>> is to

>>> identify with perpetrators of abuse? Would acknowledging the fact

> that we

>>> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

> classrooms

>>> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more  

>>> of an

> issue

>>> that society can't ignore? What implications does it potentially  

>>> have

> for

>>> instruction in the adult literacy classroom?

>>>

>>> Any thoughts?

>>>

>>> Daphne

>>>

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>> Diversity and Literacy mailing list

>>> Diversity at nifl.gov

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>>>

>>

>>

>>

>> -- 

>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>> www.LuxuriousChoices.net

>>

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>>

>>

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>

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