I'm curious what you all teach that this topic would be appropriate and/or
useful to discuss in class.  I initially voiced my concern that mentioning
potential abusers in the classroom would frighten students and indeed create
a space of mistrust and fear.  In what context would this even come up?  I
work with ESOL students, and most of the classes the program provides are
grammar and language related.  I can't see how discussions like these would
fit into the curriculum.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Mohr, James <JMohr at iel.spokane.edu> wrote:


> Hello all,

>

> I have only recently joined this list and I am finding this conversation

> incredibly enlightening.  It is making me think about how do I work with

> survivors and perpetrators in different settings.

>

> I am also thinking about another issue that seems to be playing out on

> this list.  Based on assumptions I am making on people's names, it

> appears this conversation is being driven almost exclusively by women.

> We, men, appear to be quiet on this issue.

>

> This has me thinking about how do men work with these issues in the

> classroom, if at all?  How do we work with women survivors who may have

> trust issues with men, especially men in a position of authority?  Also,

> how do we work with men who are survivors of abuse and with female

> perpetrators?  I see men's involvement in anti-violence work as an

> essential component to challenging the way that violence is perpetrated

> in our communities, yet men often do not get involved with these types

> of issues.

>

> This discussion has me thinking on a number of issues.  Thank you for

> this discussion.

>

> Jim

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:diversity-bounces at nifl.gov] On

> Behalf Of Shaewitz, Dahlia

> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:32 PM

> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [Diversity 289] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>

> Hi all:

>

> Two things I feel are important enough to add.

>

> First, we are all capable of doing really terrible things.  I think

> forgiveness is an important topic to address. How do different people

> (or cultures) manage forgiveness? Rather than focus on the bad and what

> terrible things people do.

>

> Second, in my thinking, all people who perpetrate violence have suffered

> themselves. This is where victims & perpetrators (us and them) can find

> a common bond--suffering is a shared experience, a human experience.

> Yes?

>

> Thanks for the opportunity for input.

>

> Best, Dahlia

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:diversity-bounces at nifl.gov] On

> Behalf Of Janet Isserlis

> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:09 PM

> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [Diversity 288] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>

> Daphne

>

> Like Kate, or perhaps in ways other than those that Kate just describes

> -

> you're making me think, again/harder, too.

>

> Don't think I've thought it through carefully enough yet.  We  certainly

> don't want to normalize violence.  And we do need to co-create safe

> space

> and room for people to respond to whatever is being said in ways that

> allow

> them to be heard.

>

> At first I'd thought of framing this around 'mean' or wrong things that

> we've all done in different ways -  ways that we may have hurt others

> (with

> or without intending to).  That, though. can start a thread of thought

> and

> discussion that might not be productive and could be very counter

> productive.

>

> And there's the whole issue of what right we have as 'teachers' to judge

> anyone.  Everyone makes judgements, but when we make judgements from our

> teach positions, when/how do we invoke certain power behind our

> statements

> and where does it end?  Would we want to know who the perpetrators in

> our

> classes are if we don't know already?

> As Kate mentions, in some communities, people already know who's done

> what

> to whom.

>

> I once taught a class with a man who was there on work release from

> prison.

> I never knew what he'd done - only knew that I had to report his

> attendance.

> This was over 20 years ago - long before we'd started talking about all

> of

> this.  Would I have wanted to know? Have treated him differently?

>

> Need to think on this and hope that others will join in - also want to

> re-read your questions and Kate's more carefully.

>

> thank you all for engaging.

>

> > From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> > Reply-To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> <diversity at nifl.gov>

> > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:26:36 -0500

> > To: <diversity at nifl.gov>

> > Subject: [Diversity 284] Re: abusers in our classrooms

> >

> > Janet,

> > Thanks for sharing how you use the word "us" when in discussions about

> > survivors. In my classrooms, as often as I can remember, I also try to

> use the

> > word "us" when talking about diversity-whether it is about trauma,

> age,

> > health, race, orientation issues, religion, spirituality, etc., etc.

> > My question to you and to others who wish to join in-should we be

> using the

> > word "us" when talking about perpetrators as well? What would be the

> > consequences of that type of inclusion? Would we be "normalizing"

> perpetrating

> > behavior? Would that be good or bad? On the one hand, by doing it-we

> may be

> > helping to demystify the myth that only "others" can perpetrate-not

> our

> > doctors, our teachers, our lawyers, our plumbers, our neighbors, etc.,

> etc. If

> > we begin to realize how common it is, maybe there will be more of a

> societal

> > outrage to get it to stop, or at least have stricter laws against

> perpetrators

> > of abuse. On the other hand, perhaps, by doing this we would make

> perpetrators

> > feel too welcome in our classes. But on the other hand, many would

> argue that

> > it is a teacher's job to make everyone feel as welcome as possible.

> But then

> > again, many survivors need class as a safe place. To verbally suggest

> that

> > there may be perpetrators in the classroom may be very triggering....

> > I could go on and on. Thanks for engaging in this discussion!

> > Daphne

> >

> >>>> "Isserlis, Janet" <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> 12/20/08 10:08 PM >>>

> > Daphne and all

> >

> > When I've worked with adult literacy practitioners who are addressing

> or

> > thinking about topics of abuse, I frame part of the discussion by

> saying that

> > I don't need to know who among us (I try always to use "us" when in

> > discussions about survivors) may have survived some traumatic event,

> but I do

> > know that I need to be mindful of behaviors/actions/language that can

> be

> > damaging to anyone.  I talk about universal design (the curb cuts are

> good for

> > wheelchairs and for shopping carts) ..  trying to make the point that

> > *knowing* who it is among us may have had an experience of abuse or of

> trauma,

> > we all need to be aware of treating one another with respect and care.

> >

> > When you say:

> >

> >> Would acknowledging the fact that we

> >> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

> classrooms

> >> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more of an

> issue

> >> that society can't ignore?

> >

> > -- it makes me think about offering this as a possibility as well -

> that we

> > may not know who among us has had experience as an abuser or as a

> victim, but

> > we do know that in order for learning to occur, everyone needs to feel

> safe.

> >

> > Much, though, to think about.  Not so sure about this last suggestion

> of mine.

> > I do know that I've shared your thinking /wondering about people

> around us who

> > have been perpetrators and/or victims.  It occurs to me not

> infrequently.

> >

> > thanks for raising this.

> >

> > Janet Isserlis

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

> > Sent: Sat 12/20/2008 8:30 PM

> > To: diversity at nifl.gov

> > Subject: [Diversity 279] Re: abusers in our classrooms

> >

> > Possibly, in the same way that we can all be scared by thinking about

> > something that we don't like to think about. By the time this came up,

> it was

> > almost the end of a semester. A climate had long been established of

> safety

> > and trust. We already had had many numerous conversations about

> diversity, and

> > about how we are all "the other" depending on the context. So I felt

> okay

> > mentioning it and sharing my thoughts. I wouldn't have necessarily

> shared

> > something like this on the first day of class!

> >

> >>>> "Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt" <katherine.gotthardt at gmail.com>

> 12/20/08

> >>>> 8:21 PM >>>

> > Daphne, Do you think you scared people when you said you might have

> > perpetrators in the class?  I know that would have freaked me right

> out if I

> > were a student.  It's not something many of us like to think about.

> >

> > On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Daphne Greenberg

> > <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>wrote:

> >

> >> The recent request for textbooks on family violence has reminded me

> that I

> >> have been meaning to share and seek feedback from this list regarding

> a

> >> realization that I have had recently.

> >>

> >> A few weeks ago, my graduate class on adult learning read an article

> which

> >> talked about students and instructors sharing trauma in the

> classroom. This

> >> sparked many reactions for students in my classroom and I shared the

> >> following:

> >>

> >> I have two minds about this topic. On the one hand, most instructors

> are

> >> not counselors/therapists, and sharing about trauma in a class that

> is not

> >> focused on that can be very triggering to survivors of abuse. In

> every

> >> class, depending on how large the class is, there is guaranteed to be

> one or

> >> more survivors of abuse, and therefore it may not be such a great

> idea. On

> >> the other hand, until we start to talk openly about this, society can

> go on

> >> pretending that it is not as common as it really is, and in a sense

> continue

> >> to facilitate the occurrence of abuse because it is seen as something

> that

> >> happens to "the other" and not a common day occurrence of so many

> people

> >> that we come into contact with.

> >>

> >> While I was saying the above, I said something like, due to the

> numbers in

> >> this class I am sure that we have survivors of abuse. Based on the

> numbers,

> >> I don't know if we have perpetrators of abuse, because I don't know

> the

> >> statistics of the numbers of abusers in our society. But there is a

> >> possibility that there is at least one "perpetrator" of abuse in this

> >> class-because we like to have a myth around who is and can be a

> >> perpetrator-but it is only a myth. Perpetrators can be well educated,

> they

> >> can be friendly, they can be likable, etc., etc. They can be one of

> us. Just

> >> like survivors are one of us.

> >>

> >> The realization that I had after this class, was the deep

> understanding

> >> that chances are abusers are amongst our very midst, not just in our

> >> neighborhoods, but in our professional lives. At my most recent

> faculty

> >> meeting of easily 200 or more people, I suddenly deeply realized that

> in

> >> this audience there is a good chance that there is someone who could

> be a

> >> child molester, a partner abuser, a rapist, etc., etc. I realized

> that out

> >> of all the students that I have taught and will continue to come into

> >> contact with, there will be someone who has or is perpetuating abuse.

> It

> >> made me realize that just as there are survivors on this list, there

> may

> >> also be perpetrators. These realizations hit me hard.

> >>

> >> We often talk about the importance of realizing that some of our

> adult

> >> literacy students may have endured or may be enduring violence. It

> seems

> >> that we rarely talk about the fact that some of our adult literacy

> students

> >> may have perpetuated or be currently perpetuating abuse. I wonder why

> this

> >> is so. Is it easier to identify with survivors of abuse than it is to

> >> identify with perpetrators of abuse? Would acknowledging the fact

> that we

> >> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

> classrooms

> >> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more of an

> issue

> >> that society can't ignore? What implications does it potentially have

> for

> >> instruction in the adult literacy classroom?

> >>

> >> Any thoughts?

> >>

> >> Daphne

> >>

> >> ----------------------------------------------------

> >> National Institute for Literacy

> >> Diversity and Literacy mailing list

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> >>

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> > www.LuxuriousChoices.net

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > National Institute for Literacy

> > Diversity and Literacy mailing list

> > Diversity at nifl.gov

> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/diversity

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------

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> > Diversity and Literacy mailing list

> > Diversity at nifl.gov

> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/diversity

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

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> Diversity and Literacy mailing list

> Diversity at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

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> ----------------------------------------------------

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> Diversity at nifl.gov

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-- 
Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
www.LuxuriousChoices.net
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