Katherine

I don't believe that we're talking about introducing  discussions about
violence as such (although in some instances, this becomes a matter of class
content because learners want to know more about it, or because, or
because..).

A better overview than I can provide is at http://www.jennyhorsman.com ­ go
to the articles section and see the piece entitled, But I'm not a Therapist.
I think it might be useful in thinking about these ideas in terms of adult
literacy/language learning?
and/or others on the list might be able to point to key pieces of that
writing?

thanks

Janet



From: Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt <katherine.gotthardt at gmail.com>
Reply-To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:31:36 -0500
To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>
Subject: [Diversity 296] Re: abusers in our classrooms

I'm curious what you all teach that this topic would be appropriate and/or
useful to discuss in class.  I initially voiced my concern that mentioning
potential abusers in the classroom would frighten students and indeed create
a space of mistrust and fear.  In what context would this even come up?  I
work with ESOL students, and most of the classes the program provides are
grammar and language related.  I can't see how discussions like these would
fit into the curriculum.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Mohr, James <JMohr at iel.spokane.edu> wrote:

> Hello all,

> 

> I have only recently joined this list and I am finding this conversation

> incredibly enlightening.  It is making me think about how do I work with

> survivors and perpetrators in different settings.

> 

> I am also thinking about another issue that seems to be playing out on

> this list.  Based on assumptions I am making on people's names, it

> appears this conversation is being driven almost exclusively by women.

> We, men, appear to be quiet on this issue.

> 

> This has me thinking about how do men work with these issues in the

> classroom, if at all?  How do we work with women survivors who may have

> trust issues with men, especially men in a position of authority?  Also,

> how do we work with men who are survivors of abuse and with female

> perpetrators?  I see men's involvement in anti-violence work as an

> essential component to challenging the way that violence is perpetrated

> in our communities, yet men often do not get involved with these types

> of issues.

> 

> This discussion has me thinking on a number of issues.  Thank you for

> this discussion.

> 

> Jim

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:diversity-bounces at nifl.gov] On

> Behalf Of Shaewitz, Dahlia

> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:32 PM

> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [Diversity 289] Re: abusers in our classrooms

> 

> Hi all:

> 

> Two things I feel are important enough to add.

> 

> First, we are all capable of doing really terrible things.  I think

> forgiveness is an important topic to address. How do different people

> (or cultures) manage forgiveness? Rather than focus on the bad and what

> terrible things people do.

> 

> Second, in my thinking, all people who perpetrate violence have suffered

> themselves. This is where victims & perpetrators (us and them) can find

> a common bond--suffering is a shared experience, a human experience.

> Yes?

> 

> Thanks for the opportunity for input.

> 

> Best, Dahlia

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:diversity-bounces at nifl.gov] On

> Behalf Of Janet Isserlis

> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:09 PM

> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [Diversity 288] Re: abusers in our classrooms

> 

> Daphne

> 

> Like Kate, or perhaps in ways other than those that Kate just describes

> -

> you're making me think, again/harder, too.

> 

> Don't think I've thought it through carefully enough yet.  We  certainly

> don't want to normalize violence.  And we do need to co-create safe

> space

> and room for people to respond to whatever is being said in ways that

> allow

> them to be heard.

> 

> At first I'd thought of framing this around 'mean' or wrong things that

> we've all done in different ways -  ways that we may have hurt others

> (with

> or without intending to).  That, though. can start a thread of thought

> and

> discussion that might not be productive and could be very counter

> productive.

> 

> And there's the whole issue of what right we have as 'teachers' to judge

> anyone.  Everyone makes judgements, but when we make judgements from our

> teach positions, when/how do we invoke certain power behind our

> statements

> and where does it end?  Would we want to know who the perpetrators in

> our

> classes are if we don't know already?

> As Kate mentions, in some communities, people already know who's done

> what

> to whom.

> 

> I once taught a class with a man who was there on work release from

> prison.

> I never knew what he'd done - only knew that I had to report his

> attendance.

> This was over 20 years ago - long before we'd started talking about all

> of

> this.  Would I have wanted to know? Have treated him differently?

> 

> Need to think on this and hope that others will join in - also want to

> re-read your questions and Kate's more carefully.

> 

> thank you all for engaging.

> 

>> > From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

>> > Reply-To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

> <diversity at nifl.gov>

>> > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:26:36 -0500

>> > To: <diversity at nifl.gov>

>> > Subject: [Diversity 284] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>> >

>> > Janet,

>> > Thanks for sharing how you use the word "us" when in discussions about

>> > survivors. In my classrooms, as often as I can remember, I also try to

> use the

>> > word "us" when talking about diversity-whether it is about trauma,

> age,

>> > health, race, orientation issues, religion, spirituality, etc., etc.

>> > My question to you and to others who wish to join in-should we be

> using the

>> > word "us" when talking about perpetrators as well? What would be the

>> > consequences of that type of inclusion? Would we be "normalizing"

> perpetrating

>> > behavior? Would that be good or bad? On the one hand, by doing it-we

> may be

>> > helping to demystify the myth that only "others" can perpetrate-not

> our

>> > doctors, our teachers, our lawyers, our plumbers, our neighbors, etc.,

> etc. If

>> > we begin to realize how common it is, maybe there will be more of a

> societal

>> > outrage to get it to stop, or at least have stricter laws against

> perpetrators

>> > of abuse. On the other hand, perhaps, by doing this we would make

> perpetrators

>> > feel too welcome in our classes. But on the other hand, many would

> argue that

>> > it is a teacher's job to make everyone feel as welcome as possible.

> But then

>> > again, many survivors need class as a safe place. To verbally suggest

> that

>> > there may be perpetrators in the classroom may be very triggering....

>> > I could go on and on. Thanks for engaging in this discussion!

>> > Daphne

>> >

>>>>> >>>> "Isserlis, Janet" <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> 12/20/08 10:08 PM >>>

>> > Daphne and all

>> >

>> > When I've worked with adult literacy practitioners who are addressing

> or

>> > thinking about topics of abuse, I frame part of the discussion by

> saying that

>> > I don't need to know who among us (I try always to use "us" when in

>> > discussions about survivors) may have survived some traumatic event,

> but I do

>> > know that I need to be mindful of behaviors/actions/language that can

> be

>> > damaging to anyone.  I talk about universal design (the curb cuts are

> good for

>> > wheelchairs and for shopping carts) ..  trying to make the point that

>> > *knowing* who it is among us may have had an experience of abuse or of

> trauma,

>> > we all need to be aware of treating one another with respect and care.

>> >

>> > When you say:

>> >

>>> >> Would acknowledging the fact that we

>>> >> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

> classrooms

>>> >> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more of an

> issue

>>> >> that society can't ignore?

>> >

>> > -- it makes me think about offering this as a possibility as well -

> that we

>> > may not know who among us has had experience as an abuser or as a

> victim, but

>> > we do know that in order for learning to occur, everyone needs to feel

> safe.

>> >

>> > Much, though, to think about.  Not so sure about this last suggestion

> of mine.

>> > I do know that I've shared your thinking /wondering about people

> around us who

>> > have been perpetrators and/or victims.  It occurs to me not

> infrequently.

>> >

>> > thanks for raising this.

>> >

>> > Janet Isserlis

>> >

>> >

>> > -----Original Message-----

>> > From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

>> > Sent: Sat 12/20/2008 8:30 PM

>> > To: diversity at nifl.gov

>> > Subject: [Diversity 279] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>> >

>> > Possibly, in the same way that we can all be scared by thinking about

>> > something that we don't like to think about. By the time this came up,

> it was

>> > almost the end of a semester. A climate had long been established of

> safety

>> > and trust. We already had had many numerous conversations about

> diversity, and

>> > about how we are all "the other" depending on the context. So I felt

> okay

>> > mentioning it and sharing my thoughts. I wouldn't have necessarily

> shared

>> > something like this on the first day of class!

>> >

>>>>> >>>> "Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt" <katherine.gotthardt at gmail.com>

> 12/20/08

>>>>> >>>> 8:21 PM >>>

>> > Daphne, Do you think you scared people when you said you might have

>> > perpetrators in the class?  I know that would have freaked me right

> out if I

>> > were a student.  It's not something many of us like to think about.

>> >

>> > On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Daphne Greenberg

>> > <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>wrote:

>> >

>>> >> The recent request for textbooks on family violence has reminded me

> that I

>>> >> have been meaning to share and seek feedback from this list regarding

> a

>>> >> realization that I have had recently.

>>> >>

>>> >> A few weeks ago, my graduate class on adult learning read an article

> which

>>> >> talked about students and instructors sharing trauma in the

> classroom. This

>>> >> sparked many reactions for students in my classroom and I shared the

>>> >> following:

>>> >>

>>> >> I have two minds about this topic. On the one hand, most instructors

> are

>>> >> not counselors/therapists, and sharing about trauma in a class that

> is not

>>> >> focused on that can be very triggering to survivors of abuse. In

> every

>>> >> class, depending on how large the class is, there is guaranteed to be

> one or

>>> >> more survivors of abuse, and therefore it may not be such a great

> idea. On

>>> >> the other hand, until we start to talk openly about this, society can

> go on

>>> >> pretending that it is not as common as it really is, and in a sense

> continue

>>> >> to facilitate the occurrence of abuse because it is seen as something

> that

>>> >> happens to "the other" and not a common day occurrence of so many

> people

>>> >> that we come into contact with.

>>> >>

>>> >> While I was saying the above, I said something like, due to the

> numbers in

>>> >> this class I am sure that we have survivors of abuse. Based on the

> numbers,

>>> >> I don't know if we have perpetrators of abuse, because I don't know

> the

>>> >> statistics of the numbers of abusers in our society. But there is a

>>> >> possibility that there is at least one "perpetrator" of abuse in this

>>> >> class-because we like to have a myth around who is and can be a

>>> >> perpetrator-but it is only a myth. Perpetrators can be well educated,

> they

>>> >> can be friendly, they can be likable, etc., etc. They can be one of

> us. Just

>>> >> like survivors are one of us.

>>> >>

>>> >> The realization that I had after this class, was the deep

> understanding

>>> >> that chances are abusers are amongst our very midst, not just in our

>>> >> neighborhoods, but in our professional lives. At my most recent

> faculty

>>> >> meeting of easily 200 or more people, I suddenly deeply realized that

> in

>>> >> this audience there is a good chance that there is someone who could

> be a

>>> >> child molester, a partner abuser, a rapist, etc., etc. I realized

> that out

>>> >> of all the students that I have taught and will continue to come into

>>> >> contact with, there will be someone who has or is perpetuating abuse.

> It

>>> >> made me realize that just as there are survivors on this list, there

> may

>>> >> also be perpetrators. These realizations hit me hard.

>>> >>

>>> >> We often talk about the importance of realizing that some of our

> adult

>>> >> literacy students may have endured or may be enduring violence. It

> seems

>>> >> that we rarely talk about the fact that some of our adult literacy

> students

>>> >> may have perpetuated or be currently perpetuating abuse. I wonder why

> this

>>> >> is so. Is it easier to identify with survivors of abuse than it is to

>>> >> identify with perpetrators of abuse? Would acknowledging the fact

> that we

>>> >> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

> classrooms

>>> >> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more of an

> issue

>>> >> that society can't ignore? What implications does it potentially have

> for

>>> >> instruction in the adult literacy classroom?

>>> >>

>>> >> Any thoughts?

>>> >>

>>> >> Daphne

>>> >>

>>> >> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> >> National Institute for Literacy

>>> >> Diversity and Literacy mailing list

>>> >> Diversity at nifl.gov

>>> >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>> >> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/diversity

>>> >>

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > --

>> > Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>> > www.LuxuriousChoices.net <http://www.LuxuriousChoices.net>

>> >

>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>> > National Institute for Literacy

>> > Diversity and Literacy mailing list

>> > Diversity at nifl.gov

>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/diversity

>> >

>> >

>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>> > National Institute for Literacy

>> > Diversity and Literacy mailing list

>> > Diversity at nifl.gov

>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/diversity

> 

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-- 
Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
www.LuxuriousChoices.net <http://www.LuxuriousChoices.net>



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