Andres,

I am not comparing abuse with prostitution. And whether or not there may be more abusers in a classroom than prostitutes is not the topic at hand; there may be. Nor am I arguing about the societal factors that influence some people to be prostitutes and abusers. 

The point I raised, and the one which no one has addressed, is that to "know" in a classroom "there were perpetrators, because I know in any ordinary group of men that some will be violent to a greater or lesser extent" is not an expression of knowledge or reason; it is an expression of belief, and the obfuscating, illogical comments that have been delivered in defense of such belief have been a real eye-opener for me.  


Cheers,

Kearney




________________________________
From: "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu>
To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>; The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:42:19 PM
Subject: [Diversity 317] Re: abusers in our classrooms


Poor analogy. Statistically, the % of abusers is way higher than the % of prostitutes. So, if you say that in an ordinary group of women some will be mothers, you are not being sexist. Statistically you have a good chance that some will be mothers. 
 
With men, in an ordinary group, statistically there is a good chance that some of us may be abusers. Rather than calling the statement sexist, we are better off recognizing our problem and working towards changing it. 
 
On another note, the comparison of abuse to prostitution is also poor because women who become prostitutes usually don't do it it out of desire, but out of desperation to survive. Being aware that some women and men are prostitutes is not a condemnation of them. It is a condemnation of society that forces many into that kind of lifestyle.
 
Men who abuse don't do it out of desperation and ought to change and be condemned. 
 
Happy holidays (and I haven't declared war on xmas since we had a party at home opened presents and everything else),
 
Andres
 
Andres Muro
Please take a look at my updated artwork at: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25224248@N05/sets/72157611453345957/show/

________________________________
 From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Kearney Lykins
Sent: Fri 12/26/2008 10:42 AM
To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [Diversity 314] Re: abusers in our classrooms


Karen,

Whether or not men are more violent as compared to women is not the point. Indeed, I agree that they are. But Kate makes a generalization based on fallacious reasoning.   


To illustrate my point, suppose I claimed that I know that in an ordinary group of women, some will be prostitutes to a greater or lesser extent.  Clearly such an outrageous remark would be condemned (rightly) as sexist.  

But suppose my rationale is the following: While most women are not prostitutes, and do not sell their bodies for sex, most prostitutes are indeed women, and most acts of prostitution, particularly those acts committed on men, are committed by women. Therefore, I am being very careful with my language and not sexist whatsoever when I say that in an ordinary group of women, surely some of them are prostitutes. 

Sound familar?



 
Regards,

Kearney Lykins





________________________________
 From: Karen Wyman <Karenw at nmcadv.org>
To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 12:08:40 PM
Subject: [Diversity 302] Re: abusers in our classrooms

 
Dear Kearney, 
I have to disagree that Kate’s comment is sexist. While most men are not abusers and are not violent, most abusers are men, and most acts of violence, particularly those acts against women, are committed by men. It is not unreasonable, inaccurate, or sexist to conclude that “in any ordinary group of men that some will be violent to a greater or lesser extent.” I think Kate was being very careful not to be sexist with her language and word choice. 
 
Also, I’d like to suggest that students are not in classes to “handle” their classmates; they are there to learn. It is the instructor’s responsibility to create an environment in which that can occur, and that often includes being aware of potential problems before they happen and intervening on behalf of the safety and wellbeing of all students. I think it is an interesting assumption to think that these hypothetical students are necessarily “non-feminist.”
 
I think that privilege is an important piece of this conversation that is being left out. I believe that, in addition to confronting racism and sexism, we also have a responsibility to interrupt male and white (and other kinds, too) privilege when it rears its head. I wonder if that might be an interesting discussion: what can we do to confront the use of unwarranted privilege in our classrooms? How can we interrupt those conditioned behaviors that come with that privilege? Male privilege is one of the many tools that abusers employ to exercise power and control over their victims, and there are a number of ways in which we, as educators, have the opportunity to either challenge or reinforce that privilege.  
 
Respectfully, 
Karen
 
 
 
 

________________________________


      
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