Dear Katherine
Dear Katherine and others

I am an adult literacy teacher in England and although the government has
us working to a "functional" model we try as hard as possible to teach
these adults in a "social practice" or "critical" model. That is, we use
what literacy they actually do in their lives and expand /improve skills
to help with it-- and we also consider how society has ground rules about
correct English, powerful Englishes etc (especially here in class-ridden
England). That way if I am teaching (for example) formal and informal
conventions of writing we will probably expand to talk about where the
power lies, not just within the text but within society. More often than
not literacy learners are marginalised within society so have direct
experience of the power gradients at work--I don't have many middle class
learners. I suspect that with ESOL the class make-up will be different.

Really literacy can only be taught/learned if it takes into account the
whole learner and what they want to do with their skills. And learners may
often be affected by violence, money worries, child rearing worries etc
and all this comes into the room with them.

Ruth Stainer-Smith

Devon UK.

On Tue, 23 December, 2008 10:44 pm, Janet Isserlis wrote:

> Katherine

>

>

> I don't believe that we're talking about introducing  discussions about

> violence as such (although in some instances, this becomes a matter of

> class content because learners want to know more about it, or because, or

> because..).

>

> A better overview than I can provide is at http://www.jennyhorsman.com ­

> go to the articles section and see the piece entitled, But I'm not a

> Therapist.

> I think it might be useful in thinking about these ideas in terms of adult

>  literacy/language learning? and/or others on the list might be able to

> point to key pieces of that writing?

>

> thanks

>

> Janet

>

>

>

>

> From: Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt <katherine.gotthardt at gmail.com>

> Reply-To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>

> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:31:36 -0500

> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List <diversity at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [Diversity 296] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>

>

> I'm curious what you all teach that this topic would be appropriate

> and/or useful to discuss in class.  I initially voiced my concern that

> mentioning potential abusers in the classroom would frighten students and

> indeed create a space of mistrust and fear.  In what context would this

> even come up?  I work with ESOL students, and most of the classes the

> program provides are grammar and language related.  I can't see how

> discussions like these would fit into the curriculum.

>

> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Mohr, James <JMohr at iel.spokane.edu>

> wrote:

>

>> Hello all,

>>

>>

>> I have only recently joined this list and I am finding this

>> conversation incredibly enlightening.  It is making me think about how

>> do I work with survivors and perpetrators in different settings.

>>

>> I am also thinking about another issue that seems to be playing out on

>> this list.  Based on assumptions I am making on people's names, it

>> appears this conversation is being driven almost exclusively by women.

>> We, men, appear to be quiet on this issue.

>>

>>

>> This has me thinking about how do men work with these issues in the

>> classroom, if at all?  How do we work with women survivors who may have

>> trust issues with men, especially men in a position of authority?

>> Also,

>> how do we work with men who are survivors of abuse and with female

>> perpetrators?  I see men's involvement in anti-violence work as an

>> essential component to challenging the way that violence is perpetrated

>>  in our communities, yet men often do not get involved with these types

>>  of issues.

>>

>> This discussion has me thinking on a number of issues.  Thank you for

>> this discussion.

>>

>> Jim

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:diversity-bounces at nifl.gov] On

>> Behalf Of Shaewitz, Dahlia

>> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:32 PM

>> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [Diversity 289] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>>

>>

>> Hi all:

>>

>>

>> Two things I feel are important enough to add.

>>

>>

>> First, we are all capable of doing really terrible things.  I think

>> forgiveness is an important topic to address. How do different people (or

>> cultures) manage forgiveness? Rather than focus on the bad and what

>> terrible things people do.

>>

>> Second, in my thinking, all people who perpetrate violence have

>> suffered themselves. This is where victims & perpetrators (us and them)

>> can find a common bond--suffering is a shared experience, a human

>> experience. Yes?

>>

>>

>> Thanks for the opportunity for input.

>>

>>

>> Best, Dahlia

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:diversity-bounces at nifl.gov] On

>> Behalf Of Janet Isserlis

>> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:09 PM

>> To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [Diversity 288] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>>

>>

>> Daphne

>>

>>

>> Like Kate, or perhaps in ways other than those that Kate just describes

>>  -

>> you're making me think, again/harder, too.

>>

>> Don't think I've thought it through carefully enough yet.  We

>> certainly don't want to normalize violence.  And we do need to co-create

>> safe space and room for people to respond to whatever is being said in

>> ways that allow them to be heard.

>>

>> At first I'd thought of framing this around 'mean' or wrong things that

>>  we've all done in different ways -  ways that we may have hurt others

>> (with

>> or without intending to).  That, though. can start a thread of thought

>> and discussion that might not be productive and could be very counter

>> productive.

>>

>> And there's the whole issue of what right we have as 'teachers' to

>> judge anyone.  Everyone makes judgements, but when we make judgements

>> from our teach positions, when/how do we invoke certain power behind our

>>  statements and where does it end?  Would we want to know who the

>> perpetrators in our classes are if we don't know already? As Kate

>> mentions, in some communities, people already know who's done what to

>> whom.

>>

>> I once taught a class with a man who was there on work release from

>> prison. I never knew what he'd done - only knew that I had to report his

>> attendance. This was over 20 years ago - long before we'd started talking

>> about all of this.  Would I have wanted to know? Have treated him

>> differently?

>>

>> Need to think on this and hope that others will join in - also want to

>> re-read your questions and Kate's more carefully.

>>

>> thank you all for engaging.

>>

>>>> From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

>>>> Reply-To: The Diversity and Literacy Discussion List

>>>>

>> <diversity at nifl.gov>

>>

>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:26:36 -0500

>>>> To: <diversity at nifl.gov>

>>>> Subject: [Diversity 284] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Janet,

>>>> Thanks for sharing how you use the word "us" when in discussions

>>>> about survivors. In my classrooms, as often as I can remember, I

>>>> also try to

>> use the

>>>> word "us" when talking about diversity-whether it is about trauma,

>> age,

>>>> health, race, orientation issues, religion, spirituality, etc.,

>>>> etc. My question to you and to others who wish to join in-should we

>>>> be

>> using the

>>>> word "us" when talking about perpetrators as well? What would be

>>>> the consequences of that type of inclusion? Would we be

>>>> "normalizing"

>>>>

>> perpetrating

>>>> behavior? Would that be good or bad? On the one hand, by doing

>>>> it-we

>> may be

>>>> helping to demystify the myth that only "others" can perpetrate-not

>>>>

>> our

>>>> doctors, our teachers, our lawyers, our plumbers, our neighbors,

>>>> etc.,

>> etc. If

>>>> we begin to realize how common it is, maybe there will be more of a

>>>>

>> societal

>>>> outrage to get it to stop, or at least have stricter laws against

>> perpetrators

>>>> of abuse. On the other hand, perhaps, by doing this we would make

>> perpetrators

>>>> feel too welcome in our classes. But on the other hand, many would

>> argue that

>>>> it is a teacher's job to make everyone feel as welcome as possible.

>>>>

>> But then

>>

>>>> again, many survivors need class as a safe place. To verbally

>>>> suggest

>> that

>>>> there may be perpetrators in the classroom may be very

>>>> triggering.... I could go on and on. Thanks for engaging in this

>>>> discussion! Daphne

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> "Isserlis, Janet" <Janet_Isserlis at brown.edu> 12/20/08

>>>>>>>>>> 10:08 PM >>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>> Daphne and all

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> When I've worked with adult literacy practitioners who are

>>>> addressing

>> or

>>>> thinking about topics of abuse, I frame part of the discussion by

>> saying that

>>>> I don't need to know who among us (I try always to use "us" when in

>>>>  discussions about survivors) may have survived some traumatic

>>>> event,

>> but I do

>>>> know that I need to be mindful of behaviors/actions/language that

>>>> can

>> be

>>>> damaging to anyone.  I talk about universal design (the curb cuts

>>>> are

>> good for

>>>> wheelchairs and for shopping carts) ..  trying to make the point

>>>> that *knowing* who it is among us may have had an experience of

>>>> abuse or of

>> trauma,

>>>> we all need to be aware of treating one another with respect and

>>>> care.

>>>>

>>>> When you say:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>> Would acknowledging the fact that we

>>>>>> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

>> classrooms

>>>>>> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more

>>>>>> of an

>> issue

>>>>>> that society can't ignore?

>>>>

>>>> -- it makes me think about offering this as a possibility as well -

>>>>

>> that we

>>>> may not know who among us has had experience as an abuser or as a

>> victim, but

>>>> we do know that in order for learning to occur, everyone needs to

>>>> feel

>> safe.

>>>>

>>>> Much, though, to think about.  Not so sure about this last

>>>> suggestion

>> of mine.

>>>> I do know that I've shared your thinking /wondering about people

>>>>

>> around us who

>>>> have been perpetrators and/or victims.  It occurs to me not

>> infrequently.

>>>>

>>>> thanks for raising this.

>>>>

>>>> Janet Isserlis

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> -----Original Message-----

>>>> From: diversity-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

>>>> Sent: Sat 12/20/2008 8:30 PM

>>>> To: diversity at nifl.gov

>>>> Subject: [Diversity 279] Re: abusers in our classrooms

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Possibly, in the same way that we can all be scared by thinking

>>>> about something that we don't like to think about. By the time this

>>>> came up,

>> it was

>>>> almost the end of a semester. A climate had long been established

>>>> of

>> safety

>>>> and trust. We already had had many numerous conversations about

>> diversity, and

>>>> about how we are all "the other" depending on the context. So I

>>>> felt

>> okay

>>>> mentioning it and sharing my thoughts. I wouldn't have necessarily

>> shared

>>>> something like this on the first day of class!

>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> "Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt"

>>>>>>>>>> <katherine.gotthardt at gmail.com>

>>>>>>>>>>

>> 12/20/08

>>

>>>>>>>>>> 8:21 PM >>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>> Daphne, Do you think you scared people when you said you might have

>>>>  perpetrators in the class?  I know that would have freaked me

>>>> right

>> out if I

>>>> were a student.  It's not something many of us like to think about.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Daphne Greenberg

>>>> <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>> The recent request for textbooks on family violence has

>>>>>> reminded me

>> that I

>>>>>> have been meaning to share and seek feedback from this list

>>>>>> regarding

>> a

>>>>>> realization that I have had recently.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> A few weeks ago, my graduate class on adult learning read an

>>>>>> article

>> which

>>>>>> talked about students and instructors sharing trauma in the

>> classroom. This

>>>>>> sparked many reactions for students in my classroom and I

>>>>>> shared the following:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I have two minds about this topic. On the one hand, most

>>>>>> instructors

>> are

>>>>>> not counselors/therapists, and sharing about trauma in a class

>>>>>> that

>> is not

>>>>>> focused on that can be very triggering to survivors of abuse.

>>>>>> In

>>>>>>

>> every

>>>>>> class, depending on how large the class is, there is guaranteed

>>>>>> to be

>> one or

>>>>>> more survivors of abuse, and therefore it may not be such a

>>>>>> great

>> idea. On

>>>>>> the other hand, until we start to talk openly about this,

>>>>>> society can

>> go on

>>>>>> pretending that it is not as common as it really is, and in a

>>>>>> sense

>> continue

>>>>>> to facilitate the occurrence of abuse because it is seen as

>>>>>> something

>> that

>>>>>> happens to "the other" and not a common day occurrence of so

>>>>>> many

>> people

>>>>>> that we come into contact with.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> While I was saying the above, I said something like, due to the

>>>>>>

>> numbers in

>>>>>> this class I am sure that we have survivors of abuse. Based on

>>>>>> the

>> numbers,

>>>>>> I don't know if we have perpetrators of abuse, because I don't

>>>>>> know

>> the

>>>>>> statistics of the numbers of abusers in our society. But there

>>>>>> is a possibility that there is at least one "perpetrator" of

>>>>>> abuse in this class-because we like to have a myth around who is

>>>>>> and can be a perpetrator-but it is only a myth. Perpetrators can

>>>>>> be well educated,

>> they

>>>>>> can be friendly, they can be likable, etc., etc. They can be

>>>>>> one of

>> us. Just

>>>>>> like survivors are one of us.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> The realization that I had after this class, was the deep

>>>>>>

>> understanding

>>>>>> that chances are abusers are amongst our very midst, not just

>>>>>> in our neighborhoods, but in our professional lives. At my most

>>>>>> recent

>> faculty

>>>>>> meeting of easily 200 or more people, I suddenly deeply

>>>>>> realized that

>> in

>>>>>> this audience there is a good chance that there is someone who

>>>>>> could

>> be a

>>>>>> child molester, a partner abuser, a rapist, etc., etc. I

>>>>>> realized

>> that out

>>>>>> of all the students that I have taught and will continue to

>>>>>> come into contact with, there will be someone who has or is

>>>>>> perpetuating abuse.

>> It

>>

>>>>>> made me realize that just as there are survivors on this list,

>>>>>> there

>> may

>>>>>> also be perpetrators. These realizations hit me hard.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> We often talk about the importance of realizing that some of

>>>>>> our

>> adult

>>>>>> literacy students may have endured or may be enduring violence.

>>>>>> It

>>>>>>

>> seems

>>>>>> that we rarely talk about the fact that some of our adult

>>>>>> literacy

>> students

>>>>>> may have perpetuated or be currently perpetuating abuse. I

>>>>>> wonder why

>> this

>>>>>> is so. Is it easier to identify with survivors of abuse than it

>>>>>> is to identify with perpetrators of abuse? Would acknowledging

>>>>>> the fact

>> that we

>>>>>> come into contact with both survivors and perpetrators in our

>> classrooms

>>>>>> start to place abuse out in the open and therefore make it more

>>>>>> of an

>> issue

>>>>>> that society can't ignore? What implications does it

>>>>>> potentially have

>> for

>>>>>> instruction in the adult literacy classroom?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Any thoughts?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Daphne

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>>>>>> to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/diversity

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> --

>>>> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

>>>> www.LuxuriousChoices.net <http://www.LuxuriousChoices.net>

>>>>

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>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

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>>

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>

>

>

> --

> Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

> www.LuxuriousChoices.net <http://www.LuxuriousChoices.net>

>

>

>

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