I am enjoying this exchange.  There are  valid and thought provoking  
points to be considered on all sides. This "is" education where there  
are no panaceas.   SB
On Feb 19, 2007, at 6:44 PM, robinschwarz1 at aol.com wrote:


> I couldn't agree more about rewiring-- or creating--- neural pathways

> by repetition. That we certainly know is true.   But as I said, unless

> the students actually begin to use the notebooks for their own  

> purposes

> it appears to satisfy YOUR need to organize them, not their need to

> know.  I would read their reminding others as a way of showing they

> know how the class works, not necessarily as using the notebook for

> learning purposes--though certainly other evidence may indeed show

> that.

>

> I must strongly disagree with the part about pictures and phonics.  I

> did not take the space to address the whole question of low-literacy

> learners and phonological skills--the preliteracy skills all learners

> of languages must have acquired to begin to become literate. Part of

> that learning in English is begining phonemic awareness( a subskill of

> phonological awareness) by learning the beginning sounds of familiar

> words.   Of course, if the learner can't yet process pictures,  

> pictures

> of objects as part of phonics will mean very little.  However, such

> learners are no more ready to look at SYMBOLS representing sound than

> they are to look at pictures.  Their visual literacy must be built

> before text and pictures can be used.  Phonological awareness helps

> learners understand the chunks of sound that are represented by

> symbols, and pictures and objects help with applying that concept when

> the time comes for starting to read.

>

> Meantime, there is also literature that indicates that non-literate

> learners must have a working vocabulary of something like 5,000 words

> to begin to read successfully--which makes sense when you remember  

> that

> children learning to read in first language read only words they

> already know and most children starting first grade have working

> vocabularies of around 4,000+ words --unless they come from low

> socioeconomic backgrounds, in which case that number is unfortunately

> much lower--or are ESOL learners, meaning they do not have that base

> vocabulary even a 5-yr old has.

>

>   I found that I had to TEACH the vocabulary of phonics pictures  

> for the

> phonics part of ESOL teaching to be successful--and in fact one of my

> major objections to reading programs designed for struggling native

> English speakers who use context and pictures to "cheat" when they  

> read

> is that those programs do NOT have pictures!!!   The best ESOL

> materials I have used for teaching phonics to ESOL learners--and  

> adults

> MUST be taught English phonics, I believe-- are those with pictures of

> objects they actually need to know the names of --my favorite book for

> many many years has been English Sounds and Spelling by Beaudikofer,

> Hale and somebody else ( I am not at home and cannot refer to my

> books).

>

> Again I believe that the point here is that learners cannot all be

> lumped into one program-- those who are already literate can use

> pictures and their names perfectly effectively if they KNOW the names

> for the key words--and they will have to know them sooner or later

> anyway.

>

> I'm not sure I follow the reasoning behind conceding to the error of

> pronouncing /d/ as /duh/--  can you explain how this transfers into

> normal phonics learning?   How does a learner then read words with

> consonants if they are learning the joined consonant and vowel?

>

> And I must also disagree with your strong objections to use of and

> reference to first language to learn the new one.  Much literature in

> language acquisition strongly supports the developing of comparative

> analysis skills--where one thinks consciously about what happens in

> first language and then figures out what happens in second or new( See

> Rebecca Oxford for example).  IN efforts to teach foreign language to

> learners who had difficulty, teaching metacognitive skills about how

> language works has been very effective.  Certainly many adults--maybe

> most-- need to figure out what is going on by referring to first

> language and then attempting to make the word,sound or structure  

> happen

> in first language.  There is a delightful series of books our for

> foreign language instruction called English Grammar for Speakers of

> ______ ( many languages) --each one showing how English grammar works

> and explained in the other language.   Adult learners of language have

> a vast array of methods and strategies for  learning, and depriving

> them of the reference to their first language is not considered

> helpful  by anyone else I have ever studied or heard of.

>

> I agree that the ATTITUDE of ignoring speakers of other languages

> sounds harsh, but it appears these people were dealing only with

> Spanish speakers--and as I say,  referring to first

> language--especially if the learners are low literate and do not know

> how their own language works, is seen in the literature as a very

> expeditious way of helping these learners develop both English and

> literacy.   Certainly it would be respectful to avoid constantly

> interacting with some learners in their language and ignoring others,

> but most teachers I have met are very sensitive about that issue.

>

> For literature on processing of visual information, see the published

> proceedings of the LESLLA conference in 2005 ( google LESLLA) and the

> soon to be published proceedings of the 2006 gathering ( LESLLA refers

> to low-educated adultsecond language learners becoming literate in a

> new language.)  I will send more when I am home and have my references

> handy.

>

> I don't think I can send attachments to the list, but I can send some

> articles if anyone wants to contact me off list.

>

> Robin Lovrien Schwarz, M. Sp. Ed: LD, Independent Consultant in Adult

> ESOL/Education and Learning Difficulties

>

> Original Message-----

> From: bdsunmt at sbcglobal.net

> To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

> Sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 3:42 PM

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1082] Re: adult literacy programs/reading

> issues

>

> Robin:  Thanks for this reply to Sally and your reply to me earlier.

>

> STRATEGIES:  I especially was moved by your recounting setting up a

> real sitatuation rather than using a picture that touched the

> appropriate brian center of the ESOL learner.  If you have time, could

> you send research citations on how literate individuals learn

> differently than non-literate?  I use terms like "test literate" or

> "study skills literate" to describe students who do well with these

> skills.  I have had success with my ESOL students from over 20

> countries with a strategy of using notebooks with dividers  

> according to

> topic; it is one of those practical skills that people who may not  

> have

> attended school have not been exposured to.  This strategy works if I

> make it a consistent part of the class.  With each worksheet, I tell

> the students what divider it should be put in.  Eventually they ask me

> if I forget, and help the new comers to organize their notebooks

> accordingly.  Consistency does rewire neurological pathways.  The

> question is how much rewiring takes place and what is the return for

> the time and energy.  So my suggestion is that this list begin to

> compile strategies that work for literacy level English students, not

> lesson plans but strategies that are tried and true.  Has this been

> tried yet?

>

> PHONICS and PRONUNCIATION:  Thank you also for pointing out your

> experience with phonics programs that are  made for native English

> speakers, which do not work for ESOL students because they are not

> linguistically controlled, too complex in grammar and I would add,

> often times are based on pictures of words. Your comments that  

> literacy

> level students may not make the connection between real life and a

> picture of it is well taken in this context also.  In addition,

> pictures turn a pronunciation lesson into a vocabulary lesson that

> sidetracks the learner from the sounds of English paired with its

> symbol.  My take is that sounds should be laid down neurologically

> either before or concurrent with the learning of the symbol, the

> letters.  I have found the most success with a program of introducing

> phonetics sounds without pictures, beginning with a consonant and  

> vowel

> together, not one letter in isolation from its partner.  I am

> developing a phonetically based pronunciation strategy that teaches  

> the

> sounds of a paired consonant(s) and vowel(s) sound.  It is almost

> impossible to say the sound of a consonant without saying "u" behind

> it, which is not the sound of the consonant. For example "d" is  

> usually

> pronounced "du" by a teacher introducing the sound of "d".  That is  

> not

> the sound of "d" but the sound of "d" paired with the short sound of

> "u" to make the sound "du".  "Du" cannot be used to build the letter

> "d" into a syllable or short word unless it is a short "u" sound;

> the"u" sound must be dropped if "d" is followed by a short "a"  

> sound so

> the pair sound is "da" with not "dua" .

>

> USE OF FIRST LANGUAGE:  I also second your comments on using well

> pronounced English in the classroom and not the students' first

> languge.  I was appauled to hear a presenter at a state conference say

> they had developed a workbook for their Spanish speaking students that

> taught Spanish grammar compared to English grammar.  I replied that we

> in Oakland want to retain all speakers, not just Spanish speakers  

> so we

> do not speak a first language in the classroom.  Asian speakers for

> example do not know when we are speaking English and when we are

> speaking Spanish; they may feel disempowered and leave the class.   

> This

> presenter said there are others places for non-Spanish speakers to

> learn English, that was no concern of theirs.  This disrespect for

> speakers of languages other than Spanish is intolerable in a  

> program of

> high quality.  Teachers also complain that they cannot get concepts

> across to students except in their primary language at the literacy

> level.  All of us who are experienced teachers of ESOL know that does

> not pan out in the classroom, although it takes time and energy to  

> make

> strategies work without using the students' first language.

>

> Sally Bishop <bishopsl at cc.usu.edu> wrote:Amazing. Thank you so much  

> for

> your very articulate and interesting

> insights. I am new to these lists (about a week) which I discovered

> after hours of desperate "googling." I am inspired, SB

> On Feb 19, 2007, at 8:57 AM, robinschwarz1 at aol.com wrote:

>

>>

>>

>  SB--

>

>  For one thing, the refugee programs I visit with only a very few

> exceptions lump all ESOL learners into begininng ESOL based on oral

> screening, not on a complete screening. Yet more and more  evidence is

> accruing to support what neuroscience has known for a long time-- that

> non-literate brains necessarily learn differently from literate

> brains--and literacy skills must be developed slowly and deliberately

> in the non-literate, a need literate students simply do not have. As I

> just wrote at length in another response, those who are literate  

> can be

> normally expected to not only transfer their literacy skills readily,

> but acquire language much faster since they are --theoretically at

> least-- more oriented to school and school behaviors.

>

>  Also, literacy programs are often burdened with the reality of  

> getting

> refugees out into jobs with basic English in three months-- a

> difficult task for those older adults with no previous language

> learning experience who are also non or low literate, and nearly

> impossible if efforts are made to have them become literate at the  

> same

> time.

>

>  In addition, many refugee programs, in my biased opinion, make the

> incorrect assumption that others who can speak a little English make

> good teachers for the beginning ESOL learners, when literature is

> there to support the fact that language learners do not do well with

> those who do not speak the language well. What I know about

> phonological memory--the function needed to hold onto novel/unfamiliar

> speech  sounds long enough for the brain to process them into long  

> term

> memory or for repetition--indicates that the brain can only work with

> what it gets and if the models are poor, that is what it will retain.

> So when a teacher speaks Spanish in English--Spanish syntax,

> phonology/pronunciation and grammar with English words--that is what

> the poor learners must deal with. Then we wonder why they do not

> advance in their oral English skills......

>

>  I have stated on this list before the assertion that is also true --

> and a problem--in special needs education: Those who are neediest  

> often

> get the least trained personnel. In my LONG experience as a language

> teacher, I have found that learners at low intermediate skills or

> above do very well for at least part of their learning with  

> conversation

> parents who are willing to answer vocabulary questions and model

> English structures for them-- not actually teach grammar( native

> English speakers who want to volunteer in adult education). Having

> conversation partners--and using far more innovative teaching methods

> for pairing and group work and teaching learners how to be more

> independent learners---- would relieve better trained teachers to work

> with those needing more help. In some programs I have visited, they

> have been relatively  fortunate to recruit teachers who have either

> been Peace Corps teachers or have otherwise taught English abroad. But

> experience does not apply equally when learners have such varied  

> needs.

> One teacher I spoke with in a refugee program was still in a state of

> shock months into her job over the extent of differences and  

> challenges

> her adult refugees had a English learners compared to the Chinese

> students she had taught in China for three years.

>

>  Adult ed in general--adult ESOL included--has been cursed with the

> K-12 model of heavily teacher centered, class oriented

> instruction--when adult learners do not need nor necessarily benefit

>  from this type of teaching. But inexperienced teachers find it

> difficult to give up the power of directing learning and

> learner"centered" instruction (which really ends up with teachers and

> others doing "to" the learner, not  the learner deciding, which is  

> true

> learner DRIVEN instruction). This is an issue that runs through all

> adult education-- I saw an article on a research project about  

> literacy

> tutors(not ESOL) and their adult learners--the bottom line in the

> qualitative research was that every tutor, though she or he asserted

> that the learner's input was sought, actually stated that they made  

> all

> the important decisions in the structuring of and choice of content of

> lessons. When I train  about a learner-DRIVEN approach, teachers often

> respond immediately by complaining that they do not have time to plan

> for every student--  when in reality, learner-driven instruction only

> means teaching learners  how to make their own decisions and learn for

> themselves with the teacher acting as coach and guide, not driver.

> (Again, I refer you and the list to the method that PowerPath to Basic

> Learning uses for  developing learner-driven instruction)--though as I

> have also said, it cannot be as directly developed ESOL learners who

> may have cultural biases against the concept.) Refugee programs are

> also faced with educating learners about everything else besides just

> pure English, too-- health literacy, job training, basic survival in

> the American setting, etc. That is wher the learning about the

> ineffectiveness of pictures has been most  vivid:

>  Learners not even acknowledging that what was in pictures was  

> real, or

> not responding to instruction given through pictures versus using real

> people and real objects. One program I visited that is in a very cold

> climate had a lot of difficulty getting parents to dress their

> children warmly. Signs, posters etc--translated into that language by

> native speakers of it-- made no impact and the parents were in danger

> of sanctions from the department of social services until the teachers

> brought a child into the classroom and dressed him piece by piece in

> front of the parents. THEN they got it. We as a culture have so little

> way of understanding what a distance from print/picture  literacy and

> all its facets these learners have that we have trouble, as one tutor

> of the Sudanese in Boston noted, "going back far enough." Children in

> our culture usually are taught about books and pictures starting at

> weeks of age, while many refugees-- but not ALL--have just never had

> that kind of visual training, and thus their brains do not respond to

> pictures as ours do.

>

>  But I keep repeating all this-- I hope it is of help and interest.

>

>  Robin Lovrien Schwarz, Independent Consultant in Adult ESOL/Education

> and Learning Difficulties.

>

>  Tell me more about the refugee programs you visi I don't see  

> workbooks

> as an easy fix. After 30 years of teaching General Ed, migrant  

> workers,

> ESL/Resource I have pretty good diagnostic skills and the ability to

> adapt materials. However, I don't want to reinvent the wheel if there

> is something already available. I am just discovering to my great

> surprise that there isn't much going on with literacy pedagogy ... at

> least not as much as I thought. I am a volunteer in an ESL center and

> quickly became resident "expert" on literacy. I am currently creating

> and adapting my own materials. I want to meet my students' needs,  

> but I

> don't want to become a full time teacher again. There is money

> available to purchase materials, but I haven't seen anything that  

> seems

> worthwhile. Thanks for your excellent input. It is the most useful and

> practical that I have discovered thus far. SB

>

>  SB

>  On Feb 17, 2007, at 10:33 AM, robinschwarz1 at aol.com wrote:

>

>  Teaching reading to adult ESOL learners is not so simple as finding

>  workbooks or programs. Their needs vary enormously depending on a)

> whether they are literate or not, b) what language and orthographic

> system they know and use, c) their understanding of how text is

> organized to read; d) what their working vocabulary is in English, and

> e) what stage of acquisition they are at in their fundamental reading

> vocabulary ( different from their oral vocabulary--see below for more

> on this) Research is accumulating that gives more weight in terms of

> instruction to the neuroligical fact that pre/non-literate learners'

> brains do  not perceive figures on the page ( pictures, drawings,

> letters, shapes) as do the brains of more literate learners--this  

> would

> indicate that these learners must have visual training with such

> information before text and the alphabet can be reliably put in front

> of them. Virtually every refugee program I visit that works with

> non-literate learners reports finding this out the hard way-- learners

> who do not respond at all to pictures or drawings are are very  

> confused

> by workbooks.

>

> Learners who are already literate in a language using a Roman alphabet

> must only make adjustments to the English version and English phonics.

> Most phonics programs for native English speakers are not suitable for

> ESOL because they are not controlled linguistically-- i.e. the way

> adults learn language--and are far too complex in grammar and

> vocabulary for ESOL learners. There are certainly excellent reading

> programs for literate ESOL learners to learn to read in English--

> because it is NOT learning to read per se, merely do the decoding in

> English. However, because of culturally different ideas of teaching  

> and

> learning, these learners often--usually--have very different

> expectations of text and how it is organized and what they are  

> supposed

> to do with text when they read it. I often quote a  20-yr old woman

>  from Burundi who burst out in frustration to her teacher, " You GED

> teachers are so stupid!! You do not even know what you want us to

> learn! In our country, the teacher tells us exactly what to learn and

> then we are tested on that. Here you tell us to read something  and

> then we do not know what questions you will ask." This is typical of

> those from cultures where memorization is the primary mode of

> learning--not analysis of texts ( safe to say the majority of our

> learners)--and yet this kind of confusion is often cited as proof  

> these

> learners have low reading comprehension. Learners literate in non- 

> Roman

> alphabets of course need to learn our alphabet, and here a practice

> recommended by many remedial reading experts-- training in  

> orthographic

> sensitivity, or developing automaticity in response to print-- is

> extremely helpful to these readers. ( for more on this see the work of

> Pam Hook and Charley Haynes from the Mass. General Speech Disorders

> unit--they have done a lot of training around this practice, and

> remedial reading tutors  know that struggling readers need this  

> kind of

> training.) These learners also, may have very different cultural

> expectations of text and understanding of how they think it is

> organized, so explicit teaching in how American text is organized is

> necessary.

>

>  Another issue with low literate learners is that though their

> languages may have the terminology for reading, they may not know that

> vocabulary yet (Part of what is known in the field as CALPS--cognitive

> academic language proficiency skills--the language needed to  

> understand

> texts and directions etc. ). Again, this gap in information leads

> teachers to believe these students have trouble with comprehension-- 

> but

> not because the learners cannot understand the English-- more because

> they do not have the CALPS to transfer from their first language to  

> the

> new language.

>

> The CALPS gap exists for all learners normally --there is much

> research (Collier of George Mason, U) showing that the normal lag of

> CALPS-- the language needed for understanding textbooks, directions,

> tests and text written by native speakers for native speakers--vs.

> oral/survival language is somewhere between 5 and 10 years. That means

> learners topping out in ESOL/BEST are NOT ready to do ABE materials

> because their CALPS aren't there yet, even though their oral skills  

> are

> --relatively--strong. Every program struggling with transitioning ESOL

> learners into SBE or GED confirms that the ESOL learners crash--and

> often burn--when they are put in these classes. As I have mentioned

> before on this list, one has only to administer a reading test  

> designed

> for English speakers to know where an ESOL learners' CALPS are--

> whatever grade level they achieve on such a test is NOT indication of

> reading problems, but rather of normal CALPS for their stage of

> learning. The college ESL students I taught for many years, who all  

> had

> at least high school educations and most had some college-- came into

> our program with CALPS at around 4th grade---instruction in reading  

> was

> designed to help them build their CALPS(through teaching contextual

> reading, morphology skills, etc. ) and to help them learn how American

> text was organized. And the basic phonological skills, now well

> recognized as  essential in reading instruction in this country, are

> often expectedly weak in low literate readers, and missing in

> non-literate readers. These skiills-- being aware of the sound chunks

> of the language and how they work, among others-- are critical to

> literacy and are normally low in the low or non-literate because these

> skills develop as literacy develops. However, if reading instruction

> comes in at a level of phonological skills higher than where the

> learner currently is, confusion will reign.

>

>  The normal transfer of literacy skills--and CALPS-- is well

> recognized, which is why more literate learners can learn to read and

> write readily, often without being able to speak a language all that

> well---because they understand what they need to know to learn to   

> read

> in the new language. The lower the literacy skills--and CALPS-- in

> first language, the more challenging and longer it is for learners to

> develop literacy skills in a different language than their primary  

> one.

>

>

> These are just the major issues in ESOL reading-- other issues--

>  whether the learner can actually see to read, and whether things move

> or jiggle on pages and thereby reading is impeded--also impact reading

> progress fairly significantly. Populations of adult ESOL learners in

> general neglect vision care yet do not realize the impact of poor

> vision on being able to read. I screened an Ethiopian last year who  

> had

> been trying to learn to read for 5 years. His tutors kept complaining

> that he could not remember the names of letters. When he read letters

> he read almost randomly, with little recognition of what was on the

> page. When asked what he saw, he raised his hands and moved them back

> and forth, indicating that the letters were jiggling. After he had

> chosen double goldenrod plastic overlays, he grinned form ear to ear

> and  read letters without error. He couldn't remember them because  

> they

> had never stood still long enough for him to recognize them twice.

>

>  So --there are MANY issues to consider in helping ESOL learners

> read--no single approach will ever help. What is needed is thorough

> training not only in teaching reading, but in teaching reading to   

> ESOL

> learners of different education and cultural backgrounds as well as in

> other issues that ESOL learners come with.

>

>  And by the way, all these needs of adult ESOL learners add  

> strength to

> the argument that adult ESOL should be totally separated from adult

>  Education.

>

>  Robin Lovrien Schwarz, Independent Consultant in Adult ESOL/Education

> and Learning Difficulties.

>

>  -----Original Message-----

>  From: bishopsl at cc.usu.edu

>  To: englishlanguage at nifl.gov

>  Sent: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:05 PM

>  Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1049] adult literacy programs

>  I am just beginning to understand the difference between teaching

> reading to adults and to children. That knowledge of what more I need

> to do is creating some frustration because I know what I need to do  

> but

> I been able to access the help I need. Currently I am now

>  relying on many many years of teaching resource and ESL to  

> children Of

> course, this is unsatisfactory to me. So, what I need is to find

> supplementary workbooks or programs so that I do not have to develop a

> program from the ground up. I would appreciate any help you could

> provide.

> bishopsl at cc.usu.edu--------------------------------------------------- 

> -

>

>

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