Here's an example of where language and culture can become fodder for
conversation in language classes.

Some words may, in fact, feel pejorative to some people.  Some cultures, for
example, value thinness, or tallness, while others appreciate fatness.
Being called fat in one culture might be a compliment; in another, it might
be less appealing.

None of us should ever offer immigration advice to anyone, unless we're
immigration attorneys or working in offices/agencies where we've been
trained to do that.

But the issue here is about how our words and actions are perceived by those
in our communities ­ including within the communities of our classrooms..

Janet Isserlis 



From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:44:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1455] Re: [English Language 1441] Re: Immigration
Bill - Correction

Sally,

I concur that reaching agreement on the immigration issue is unlikely. Our
disagreements are exacerbated though when people cannot even accept the
given legal terms, which, if taken in context are not pejorative whatsoever.
As I have pointed out before, in immigration terms "alien" is not
pejorative; it is a legal status with plain meaning. Objecting to the term
because it can be associated with other meanings (e.g., a being from another
planet...) is like objecting to the term plaintiff because it might connote
somebody who sits around complaining all day, or that a defendant acts
defensively. 

If you were offering immigration advice to somebody wouldn't it be
responsible to educate him/her on the pertinent legal terms and their true
meanings? 
 

Kearney Lykins


----- Original Message ----
From: Sally Bishop <bishopsl at cc.usu.edu>
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:10:52 PM
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1448] Re: [English Language 1441] Re: Immigration
Bill - Correction

I know enough about the American lawmakers to know that "when" and "if" they
ever pass a new immigration law... it won't be better and it won't be fair.
We are  a nation of laws, but we are also a nation that does not have to
accept bad laws.  Hence the Supreme   Court.  No we will never come to
consensus on this issue no matter the level of our education or our
understanding.  However, I would like to see all of us reexamine the
language we use when talking about immigration.  For example, as far as I
know I have never met anyone from another planet, and I believe that calling
people "aliens" is pejorative.  (I haven't noted this used here.)

 (After 6 months on this list, I just wrote my first complete sentence.
Maybe it is because today I  travelled 4 hours to see two of my 50 year old
students attend the Naturalization Oath Ceremony.)



On May 30, 2007, at 7:39 AM, carolkubota at comcast.net wrote:


>  

> "Field Hands" are the people who work in agriculture, in the fields.  I live

> in Michigan and the farmers here are not able to harvest their vegetable crops

> and will not be able to harvest the fruit crops this summer because the

> "migrants" are not coming to Michigan out of fear of being caught if they are

> illegal.  The farmers are complaining because no one else wants to do this

> backbreaking work and the fruits and vegetables will go to waste.

>  

>  

>  

>> -------------- Original message --------------

>> From: "shirley burns" <threedog at cyberport.net>

>>  

>> I know we will never come to a consensus on this issue.  I can¹t be persuaded

>> that it is okay to disregard laws.  We are a nation of laws and just because

>> a law didn¹t exist thirty years in its current form doesn¹t mean to ignore

>> the law.  I teach ESL and have many hard working students who are legal and I

>> admire them tremendously. They are working within the law and making good

>> progress in their new country.  I¹m not sure what the ³field hands² mean.  I

>> would think the law should rather they are a doctor or a field hand.

>>  

>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of

>> carolkubota at comcast.net

>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:25 PM

>> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1441] Re: Immigration Bill - Correction

>>   

>>  

>> That is the exact same thing that many of the migrants are doing.  They come

>> here and work hard, learn English and save as much as they can.  I know many

>> families who came here illegally and have been able to send their children to

>> college and their children are now in the professioanl field.

>>  

>>  

>>  

>> They are not all "field hands" forever.

>>  

>>  

>>  

>> Everyone deserves a chance.

>>  

>>  

>>  

>>  

>>  

>> -------------- Original message --------------

>> From: "Freeman, Leigh" <lfreeman at njn.org>

>>  

>>> My grandparents came from PolandŠmy maternal grandfather learned enough

>>> English to survive and got a job in the coal mines in PA and he worked hard.

>>> He had two houses, one to rent out and his family always had food, shelter

>>> and medical care (that he paid for). My paternal grandfather built a bakery

>>> in North Trenton NJ and survived very well. The key issues with me are to

>>> learn the language, get a job and to pay their way (medical, taxes,

>>> whatever). They can¹t do that if we keep this illegal thing going.

>>> Peace,

>>> Leigh Freeman

>>>   

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> 

>>>  

>>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of shirley burns

>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:39 AM

>>> To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'

>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1436] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>   

>>> Not quite.  Ellis island served as a immigration format.  My grandfather

>>> came from Sweden.  He took ESL classes at night and worked during the day.

>>> He gave learning English a high priority because he wanted to get a job!  He

>>> didn¹t receive any social benefits.  He is the first to say that learning

>>> the language and earning your way is your responsibility.  I think we need

>>> to see the middle ground.  Let¹s face it we are a much bigger country than

>>> in 1921. 

>>>   

>>>  

>>>  

>>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Martin Senger

>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:12 AM

>>> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1432] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>   

>>> Pax all! 

>>>   

>>> Keep in mind that there were NO comprehensive immigration laws until 1921,

>>> unless you count having a cough (in which case you were quarantined until

>>> you got better or were sent back).  So most immigrants had no laws to break

>>> by getting on a ship and coming here. No language requirement, no money.

>>> Just huddled masses yearning to breathe free. How times have changed!

>>>   

>>> Ciao!

>>> Martin E. Senger

>>>   

>>> -----Original Message-----

>>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of

>>> carolkubota at comcast.net

>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:10 PM

>>> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1389] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>   

>>>  

>>> Luanne,

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Did your grandparents immigrate into this country illegally? My great

>>> grandparents didn't.

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Carol

>>>  

>>>> -------------- Original message --------------

>>>> From: "Luanne Teller" <lteller at massasoit.mass.edu>

>>>> 

>>>>> > I read with interest all that is being said about immigrants, amnesty,

>>>>> > and of course, the level of hostility that somehow has become part of

>>>>> > our national dialog.

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > I can't help but be thankful that this same atmosphere was not in place

>>>>> > when my grandparents immigrated to this country. All four of my and my

>>>>> > husband's parents are first generation Americans.

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > My father often told the story of how he began kindergarten without

>>>>> > knowing one word of English. Just a short decade later, he was on a

>>>>> > Navy ship defending his country in WWII. What a difference 10 years can

>>>>> > make... 

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > Our parents never considered themselves anything but Americans...why is

>>>>> > it that now seems like a luxury so many are no longer  afford ed?

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > My father often mused that perhaps people would be less hostile towards

>>>>> > immigrant populations if they realized that they would be paying $10 for

>>>>> > a gallon of orange juice if it weren't for the migrant workers. He also

>>>>> > thought it was criminal that ANY child living in America would be

>>>>> > hungry, or have limited access to health care or housing.

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > So who do we count? And who do we care about? And who gets to decide?

>>>>> > Luanne 

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > -----Original Message-----

>>>>> > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>>> > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Sally Bishop

>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:13 AM

>>>>> > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>>>> > Su bject: [EnglishLanguage 1367] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > A very good question. If only I could ask my German grandparents who

>>>>> > arri ved in the 1880's or my husband's ancest ors wh o arrived in

>>>>> 1626.... 

>>>>> > or my students who are attending the Naturalization Oath Ceremony

>>>>> > next week. 

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > 

>>>>> > On May 22, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>>>> > 

>>>>>> > > Kearney,

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>> > > Now how far do we go back when we talk about uninvited

>>>>>> > > guests? 

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>> > > Warm regards,

>>>>>> > > Ujwala Samant

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>> > > --- Kearney Lykins wrote:

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>>> > >> Nancy,

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Certainly the "needs of the people" are the very

>>>>>>> > >> reason for government in the first place. The

>>>>>>> > >> immigrati on deb ate however is about who gets to be

>>>>>>> > >> "the people." Societies that don't control their

>>>>>>> > >> borders, and hence their language and culture and

>>>>>>> > >> shared values ceases being a society at all. There

>>>>>> > >& gt; are no examples of successful societies that have

>>>> & gt; >> permitted themselves to be overrun with uninvited

>>>>>>> > >> guests.

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Kearney Lykins

>>>>>>> > >> ESOL Teacher

>>>>>>> > >> Virginia Beach, VA

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> ----- Original Message ----

>>>>>>> > >> From: Nancy R Faux/AC/VCU

>>>>>>> > >> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion

>>>>>>> > >> List 

>>>>>>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:14:13 AM

>>>>>>> > >> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1331] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Gloria, thank you so much f or sha ring

>>>>>>> > >> this. I was not aware in such detail of this

>>>>>>> > >> portion of the proposed

>>>>>>> > >> bill. 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> On thi s past Sunday, I listened on our

>>>>>>> > >> local NPR station to

>>>>>>> > >> a talk  given by Jared Diamond, author of Collapse:

>>>>>>> > >> How Societies

>>>>>>> > >> Choose to Fail or Succeed. One of his main tenets

>>>>>>> > >> was that societies

>>>>>>> > >> in which the ruling class fails to understand the

>>>>>>> > >> needs of the rest of

>>>>>>> > >> the people (i.e.loses touch with reality) ultimately

>>>>>>> > >> fails.

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Nancy 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>> > > *********************************************************

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Nancy R. Faux

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>> &g t; > ;> ESOL Specialist

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Virginia Adult Learning Resource Center

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Virginia Commonwealth University

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Richmond, VA

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> nfaux at vcu.edu

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> h ttp:// www.valrc.org <http://www.valrc.org>

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 1-800-237-0178

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> "Gloria Gillette"

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Sent by: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>>>>> > >> 05/21/2007 04:34 PM

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Please respond to

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>> > >&g t; 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> To 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> "'The Adult English Language Learners

>>>>>>> > >> Discu ssion List'"

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> cc 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>> & gt; &g t;> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Subject

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> [EnglishLanguage 1321] Immigration

>>>>>>> > >> Bill 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Has anyone read the Immigration

>>>>>>> > >> bill being debated in the Senate?

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> For all the talk f rom th e politicians

>>>>>>> > >> about immigrants learning English, this is what is

>>>>>>> > >> included in the 324

>>>>>>> > >> page bill (available on CSPAN):

>>>>>> > >&g t; 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> (Sec 709): 29 SEC. 709. English Learning

>>>>>>> > >> Program.

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>> & gt; &g t;> 30 (a) The Secretary of Education shall

>>>>>>> > >> develop an open source electronic

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 31 program, useable on personal computers

>>>>>>> > >> and through the Internet,

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 32 that teaches the English language

>>>>>>> > >> at various levels of proficiency, up

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 33 to and including the ability to

>>>>>>> > >> pass the Test of English as a Foreign

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 34 Language, to individuals inside

>>>>>>> > >> the United States whose primary

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 35 language is a l anguage other than

>>>>>>> > >> English. The Secretary shall make

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 36 the program available to the public

>>>>>>> > >> for free, including by plac ing it on

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 37 the Department of Education website,

>>>>>>> > >> and shall ensure that it is readily

>>>> &g t; > ;> 

>>>>>>> > >> 38 accessible to public libraries throughout

>>>>>>> > >> the United States. The

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 39 program shall be fully accessible,

>>>>>>> > >> at a minimum, to speakers of the top

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 40 five foreign languages spoken inside

>>>>>>> > >> the United States.

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 41 (b) Authorization of Appropriations-

>>>>>>> > >> There is authorized to be

>>>> &g t; > ;> 

>>>>>>> > >> DRAFT - FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> May 18, 2007 11:58 p.m.

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 5/18/2007 325

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> appropriated to the Secretary of Education

>>>>>>> > >> 1 such sums as are necessary

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>> > >&g t; Section 704 discusses Citizenship

>>>>>>> > >> and Integration Councils- also worth reading. (Is

>>>>>>> > >> this  EL/Civ ics?).

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Gloria Gillette

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>>> > >> Northeast ABLE Resource

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>> > > Center----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>> > >> 

>>>>>> > > === message truncated ===>

>>>>>> > > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>> > >> National Institute for Literacy

>>>>>>> > >> Adult English Language Learners mailing li st

>>>>>>> > >> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>>>> > >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings,

>>>>>>> > >> please go to

>>>>>>> > >> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>>>>>> > >> Email delivered to lalumineuse at yahoo.com

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>> > > 

>>>>>> > > _______________________ ______

>>>>>> _________________________________________

>>>>> > 

>>>>>> > > ______________Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured w ith th e

>>>>>> > > added security of spyware protection.

>>>>>> > > http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php

>>>>>> > > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>> > > National Institute for Literacy

>>>>>> > > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>>>>> > > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>>> > > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>>>> > > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlangua ge

>>>>>> > > Email delivered to bishopsl at cc.usu.edu

>>>>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>> > National Institute for Literacy

>>>>> > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>>>> > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/engli shlang uage

>>>>> > Email delivered to lteller at massasoit.mass.edu

>>>>> > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>> &g t; National Institute for Literacy

>>>>> > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>>>> > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>> > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>>> > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>>>> > Email delivered to carolkubota at comcast.net

> 

> From: shirley burns <threedog at cyberport.net>

> Date: May 30, 2007 6:46:17 AM MDT

> To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1443] Re: [English Language 1441] Re: Immigration

> Bill - Correction

> 

> 

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

> Email delivered to carolkubota at comcast.net

> 

> 

> ----------------------------------------------------

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> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

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>  


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