As a former teacher and now a researcher, I think it is important to 
find out what is in people's minds when they use certain words.  This 
can be done quietly and respectfully.  One difficulty I have noticed on 
list servs is the habit of using words as weapons against other list 
members. And  if I have done so in the past, I apologize for it.  This 
gets everyone's dander up, and then the slinging fest continues.  It 
isn't necessary.  One's own "truth" can be expressed and defended in a 
respectful manner.

Andrea

On May 31, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Janet Isserlis wrote:


> Here's an example of where language and culture can become fodder for 

> conversation in language classes.

>

>  Some words may, in fact, feel pejorative to some people.  Some 

> cultures, for example, value thinness, or tallness, while others 

> appreciate fatness.  Being called fat in one culture might be a 

> compliment; in another, it might be less appealing.

>

>  None of us should ever offer immigration advice to anyone, unless 

> we're immigration attorneys or working in offices/agencies where we've 

> been trained to do that.

>

>  But the issue here is about how our words and actions are perceived 

> by those in our communities – including within the communities of our 

> classrooms..

>

>  Janet Isserlis

>

>

> From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>

> Reply-To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List 

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:44:46 -0700 (PDT)

> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List 

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1455] Re: [English Language 1441] Re: 

> Immigration Bill - Correction

>

>  Sally,

>

>  I concur that reaching agreement on the immigration issue is 

> unlikely. Our disagreements are exacerbated though when people cannot 

> even accept the given legal terms, which, if taken in context are not 

> pejorative whatsoever. As I have pointed out before, in immigration 

> terms "alien" is not pejorative; it is a legal status with plain 

> meaning. Objecting to the term because it can be associated with other 

> meanings (e.g., a being from another planet...) is like objecting to 

> the term plaintiff because it might connote somebody who sits around 

> complaining all day, or that a defendant acts defensively.

>

>  If you were offering immigration advice to somebody wouldn't it be 

> responsible to educate him/her on the pertinent legal terms and their 

> true meanings?

>   

>

>  Kearney Lykins

>

>

>  ----- Original Message ----

>  From: Sally Bishop <bishopsl at cc.usu.edu>

>  To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List 

> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

>  Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:10:52 PM

>  Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1448] Re: [English Language 1441] Re: 

> Immigration Bill - Correction

>

>  I know enough about the American lawmakers to know that "when" and 

> "if" they ever pass a new immigration law... it won't be better and it 

> won't be fair.  We are  a nation of laws, but we are also a nation 

> that does not have to accept bad laws.  Hence the Supreme   Court.  No 

> we will never come to consensus on this issue no matter the level of 

> our education or our understanding.  However, I would like to see all 

> of us reexamine the language we use when talking about immigration. 

>  For example, as far as I know I have never met anyone from another 

> planet, and I believe that calling people "aliens" is pejorative.  (I 

> haven't noted this used here.)

>

>   (After 6 months on this list, I just wrote my first complete 

> sentence.  Maybe it is because today I  travelled 4 hours to see two 

> of my 50 year old students attend the Naturalization Oath Ceremony.)  

>

>

>

>  On May 30, 2007, at 7:39 AM, carolkubota at comcast.net wrote:

>

>>

>>  "Field Hands" are the people who work in agriculture, in the fields. 

>>  I live in Michigan and the farmers here are not able to harvest 

>> their vegetable crops and will not be able to harvest the fruit crops 

>> this summer because the "migrants" are not coming to Michigan out of 

>> fear of being caught if they are illegal.  The farmers are 

>> complaining because no one else wants to do this backbreaking work 

>> and the fruits and vegetables will go to waste.

>>   

>>   

>>   

>>> -------------- Original message --------------

>>>  From: "shirley burns" <threedog at cyberport.net>

>>>   

>>> I know we will never come to a consensus on this issue.  I can’t be 

>>> persuaded that it is okay to disregard laws.  We are a nation of 

>>> laws and just because a law didn’t exist thirty years in its current 

>>> form doesn’t mean to ignore the law.  I teach ESL and have many hard 

>>> working students who are legal and I admire them tremendously. They 

>>> are working within the law and making good progress in their new 

>>> country.  I’m not sure what the “field hands” mean.  I would think 

>>> the law should rather they are a doctor or a field hand.  

>>>

>>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov 

>>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of 

>>> carolkubota at comcast.net

>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:25 PM

>>> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1441] Re: Immigration Bill - Correction

>>>   

>>>   

>>>  That is the exact same thing that many of the migrants are doing. 

>>>  They come here and work hard, learn English and save as much as 

>>> they can.  I know many families who came here illegally and have 

>>> been able to send their children to college and their children are 

>>> now in the professioanl field.

>>>   

>>>   

>>>   

>>>  They are not all "field hands" forever.

>>>   

>>>   

>>>   

>>>  Everyone deserves a chance.

>>>   

>>>   

>>>   

>>>   

>>>   

>>>  -------------- Original message --------------

>>>  From: "Freeman, Leigh" <lfreeman at njn.org>

>>>   

>>>> My grandparents came from Poland…my maternal grandfather learned 

>>>> enough English to survive and got a job in the coal mines in PA and 

>>>> he worked hard. He had two houses, one to rent out and his family 

>>>> always had food, shelter and medical care (that he paid for). My 

>>>> paternal grandfather built a bakery in North Trenton NJ and 

>>>> survived very well. The key issues with me are to learn the 

>>>> language, get a job and to pay their way (medical, taxes, 

>>>> whatever). They can’t do that if we keep this illegal thing going.

>>>>  Peace,

>>>>  Leigh Freeman

>>>>    

>>>>

>>>>   

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov 

>>>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of shirley 

>>>> burns

>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:39 AM

>>>> To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List'

>>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1436] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>>   

>>>> Not quite.  Ellis island served as a immigration format.  My 

>>>> grandfather came from Sweden.  He took ESL classes at night and 

>>>> worked during the day.  He gave learning English a high priority 

>>>> because he wanted to get a job!  He didn’t receive any social 

>>>> benefits.  He is the first to say that learning the language and 

>>>> earning your way is your responsibility.  I think we need to see 

>>>> the middle ground.  Let’s face it we are a much bigger country than 

>>>> in 1921.

>>>>    

>>>>

>>>>   

>>>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov 

>>>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Martin 

>>>> Senger

>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:12 AM

>>>> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1432] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>>   

>>>> Pax all!

>>>>    

>>>>  Keep in mind that there were NO comprehensive immigration laws 

>>>> until 1921, unless you count having a cough (in which case you were 

>>>> quarantined until you got better or were sent back).  So most 

>>>> immigrants had no laws to break by getting on a ship and coming 

>>>> here. No language requirement, no money. Just huddled masses 

>>>> yearning to breathe free. How times have changed!

>>>>    

>>>>  Ciao!

>>>>  Martin E. Senger

>>>>    

>>>> -----Original Message-----

>>>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov 

>>>> [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of 

>>>> carolkubota at comcast.net

>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:10 PM

>>>> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1389] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>>   

>>>>   

>>>>  Luanne,

>>>>   

>>>>   

>>>>   

>>>>  Did your grandparents immigrate into this country illegally? My 

>>>> great grandparents didn't.  

>>>>   

>>>>   

>>>>   

>>>>  Carol

>>>>   

>>>>> -------------- Original message --------------

>>>>>  From: "Luanne Teller" <lteller at massasoit.mass.edu>

>>>>>

>>>>>  > I read with interest all that is being said about immigrants, 

>>>>> amnesty,

>>>>>  > and of course, the level of hostility that somehow has become 

>>>>> part of

>>>>>  > our national dialog.

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > I can't help but be thankful that this same atmosphere was not 

>>>>> in place

>>>>>  > when my grandparents immigrated to this country. All four of my 

>>>>> and my

>>>>>  > husband's parents are first generation Americans.

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > My father often told the story of how he began kindergarten 

>>>>> without

>>>>>  > knowing one word of English. Just a short decade later, he was 

>>>>> on a

>>>>>  > Navy ship defending his country in WWII. What a difference 10 

>>>>> years can

>>>>>  > make...

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > Our parents never considered themselves anything but 

>>>>> Americans...why is

>>>>>  > it that now seems like a luxury so many are no longer  afford 

>>>>> ed?

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > My father often mused that perhaps people would be less hostile 

>>>>> towards

>>>>>  > immigrant populations if they realized that they would be 

>>>>> paying $10 for

>>>>>  > a gallon of orange juice if it weren't for the migrant workers. 

>>>>> He also

>>>>>  > thought it was criminal that ANY child living in America would 

>>>>> be

>>>>>  > hungry, or have limited access to health care or housing.

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > So who do we count? And who do we care about? And who gets to 

>>>>> decide?

>>>>>  > Luanne

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > -----Original Message-----

>>>>>  > From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>>>  > [mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Sally 

>>>>> Bishop

>>>>>  > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:13 AM

>>>>>  > To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>>>>  > Su bject: [EnglishLanguage 1367] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > A very good question. If only I could ask my German 

>>>>> grandparents who

>>>>>  > arri ved in the 1880's or my husband's ancest ors wh o arrived 

>>>>> in 1626....

>>>>>  > or my students who are attending the Naturalization Oath 

>>>>> Ceremony

>>>>>  > next week.

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > On May 22, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Ujwala Samant wrote:

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > > Kearney,

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > > Now how far do we go back when we talk about uninvited

>>>>>  > > guests?

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > > Warm regards,

>>>>>  > > Ujwala Samant

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > > --- Kearney Lykins wrote:

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > >> Nancy,

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Certainly the "needs of the people" are the very

>>>>>  > >> reason for government in the first place. The

>>>>>  > >> immigrati on deb ate however is about who gets to be

>>>>>  > >> "the people." Societies that don't control their

>>>>>  > >> borders, and hence their language and culture and

>>>>>  > >> shared values ceases being a society at all. There

>>>>>  > >& gt; are no examples of successful societies that have  

>>>>>  & gt; >> permitted themselves to be overrun with uninvited

>>>>>  > >> guests.

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Kearney Lykins

>>>>>  > >> ESOL Teacher

>>>>>  > >> Virginia Beach, VA

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> ----- Original Message ----

>>>>>  > >> From: Nancy R Faux/AC/VCU

>>>>>  > >> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion

>>>>>  > >> List

>>>>>  > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:14:13 AM

>>>>>  > >> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1331] Re: Immigration Bill

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Gloria, thank you so much f or sha ring

>>>>>  > >> this. I was not aware in such detail of this

>>>>>  > >> portion of the proposed

>>>>>  > >> bill.

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> On thi s past Sunday, I listened on our

>>>>>  > >> local NPR station to

>>>>>  > >> a talk  given by Jared Diamond, author of Collapse:

>>>>>  > >> How Societies

>>>>>  > >> Choose to Fail or Succeed. One of his main tenets

>>>>>  > >> was that societies

>>>>>  > >> in which the ruling class fails to understand the

>>>>>  > >> needs of the rest of

>>>>>  > >> the people (i.e.loses touch with reality) ultimately

>>>>>  > >> fails.

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Nancy

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > > *********************************************************

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Nancy R. Faux

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  &g t; > ;> ESOL Specialist

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Virginia Adult Learning Resource Center

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Virginia Commonwealth University

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Richmond, VA

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> nfaux at vcu.edu

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> h ttp:// www.valrc.org <http://www.valrc.org>  

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 1-800-237-0178

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> "Gloria Gillette"

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Sent by: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>>>  > >> 05/21/2007 04:34 PM

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Please respond to

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >&g t;

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> To

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> "'The Adult English Language Learners

>>>>>  > >> Discu ssion List'"

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> cc

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  & gt; &g t;>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Subject

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> [EnglishLanguage 1321] Immigration

>>>>>  > >> Bill

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Has anyone read the Immigration

>>>>>  > >> bill being debated in the Senate?

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> For all the talk f rom th e politicians

>>>>>  > >> about immigrants learning English, this is what is

>>>>>  > >> included in the 324

>>>>>  > >> page bill (available on CSPAN):

>>>>>  > >&g t;

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> (Sec 709): 29 SEC. 709. English Learning

>>>>>  > >> Program.

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  & gt; &g t;> 30 (a) The Secretary of Education shall

>>>>>  > >> develop an open source electronic

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 31 program, useable on personal computers

>>>>>  > >> and through the Internet,

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 32 that teaches the English language

>>>>>  > >> at various levels of proficiency, up

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 33 to and including the ability to

>>>>>  > >> pass the Test of English as a Foreign

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 34 Language, to individuals inside

>>>>>  > >> the United States whose primary

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 35 language is a l anguage other than

>>>>>  > >> English. The Secretary shall make

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 36 the program available to the public

>>>>>  > >> for free, including by plac ing it on

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 37 the Department of Education website,

>>>>>  > >> and shall ensure that it is readily

>>>>>  &g t; > ;>

>>>>>  > >> 38 accessible to public libraries throughout

>>>>>  > >> the United States. The

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 39 program shall be fully accessible,

>>>>>  > >> at a minimum, to speakers of the top

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 40 five foreign languages spoken inside

>>>>>  > >> the United States.

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 41 (b) Authorization of Appropriations-

>>>>>  > >> There is authorized to be

>>>>>  &g t; > ;>

>>>>>  > >> DRAFT - FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> May 18, 2007 11:58 p.m.

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> 5/18/2007 325

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> appropriated to the Secretary of Education

>>>>>  > >> 1 such sums as are necessary

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >&g t; Section 704 discusses Citizenship

>>>>>  > >> and Integration Councils- also worth reading. (Is

>>>>>  > >> this  EL/Civ ics?).

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Gloria Gillette

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > >> Northeast ABLE Resource

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > > Center----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>  > >>

>>>>>  > > === message truncated ===>

>>>>>  > > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>  > >> National Institute for Literacy

>>>>>  > >> Adult English Language Learners mailing li st

>>>>>  > >> EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>>  > >> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings,

>>>>>  > >> please go to

>>>>>  > >> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>>>>  > >> Email delivered to lalumineuse at yahoo.com

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > >

>>>>>  > > _______________________ ______ 

>>>>> _________________________________________

>>>>>  >

>>>>>  > > ______________Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured w 

>>>>> ith th e

>>>>>  > > added security of spyware protection.

>>>>>  > > http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php

>>>>>  > > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>  > > National Institute for Literacy

>>>>>  > > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>>>>  > > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>>  > > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please 

>>>>> go to

>>>>>  > > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlangua ge

>>>>>  > > Email delivered to bishopsl at cc.usu.edu

>>>>>  > ----------------------------------------------------

>>>>>  > National Institute for Literacy

>>>>>  > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>>>>  > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>>  > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go 

>>>>> to

>>>>>  > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/engli shlang uage

>>>>>  > Email delivered to lteller at massasoit.mass.edu

>>>>>  > ----------------------------------------------------  

>>>>>  &g t; National Institute for Literacy

>>>>>  > Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>>>>  > EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>>>>  > To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go 

>>>>> to

>>>>>  > http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>>>>  > Email delivered to carolkubota at comcast.net

>>

>> From: shirley burns <threedog at cyberport.net>

>> Date: May 30, 2007 6:46:17 AM MDT

>> To: 'The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List' 

>> <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 1443] Re: [English Language 1441] Re: 

>> Immigration Bill - Correction

>>

>>

>>  ----------------------------------------------------

>>  National Institute for Literacy

>>  Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>  EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>  To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>  Email delivered to carolkubota at comcast.net

>>

>>

>>  ----------------------------------------------------

>>  National Institute for Literacy

>>  Adult English Language Learners mailing list

>>  EnglishLanguage at nifl.gov

>>  To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

>>  Email delivered to bishopsl at cc.usu.edu

>>   

>

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