Ujwala,

By coincidence, I was on a Fulbright to Saudi Arabia about the time our first child was born. He was around Saudi children fairly regularly and picked up some Arabic including some sounds that are particularly difficult for English speakers; pharyngeal fricatives, emphatic consonants, etc. That was between 1963-1966. The really interesting part is that although he has long forgotten any Arabic words, he can imitate, to this day almost anything I say to him in Arabic. He is now in his forties. I read some research many years ago that the optimum age for second language acquisition is around 3 1/2.  We had a daughter born in Saudi Arabia in 1965. By the time she was three, we went to Thailand for the Defense Language Institute English Language Center. Our daughter spoke some Thai accurately, including tones, better than anyone in the family. It even affected her English. One day she was going out and and I asked her, "Where are you going sweetie?" She answered, "I go sukoon." Final lateral consonants convert to nasals in Thai and consonant clusters often get vowels in the middle. 

I have spent decades involved with ESL for adults and have noticed the following:

1. Some people pick up the sounds of a new language, quicker than others. Some of the best "imitators" are also musicians or very music conscious. Many natural musicians are also right hemisphere dominant.

2. Some of the persons who retain very heavy foreign accents, do not culturally fit in with, or somewhat resent,  the speakers of the other language. I could give some specific examples, but don't want to embarrass anybody! There has been some research in this area by intercultural specialists.

3. Language acquisition seems to be a gift that even retarded people have. We had a family member in a facility for the retarded in San Antonio, Texas for fifteen years. There were persons living there who were quite bilingual in English and Spanish and were capable of switching languages ("code switching") rather spontaneously. The conversations weren't very interesting, but it was surprising how well some of them could communicate. Many of the residents had slight speech impediments, possibly from brain damage, but were quite understandable. One man, probably around 30 years old, was quite functional in Hungarian, German and English. He was not functional in the "real world."

4. There are methods that can be used to accelerate acquisition of sounds for most people. One of the biggest problems is that many language teachers don't know where to start. A small percentage of teachers have any background in the application of phonology. It's not fashionable in some ESL circles.

Cheers,  Ted
www.tedklein-ESL.com    



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ujwala Samant" <lalumineuse at yahoo.com>
To: "The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List" <englishlanguage at nifl.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:35 PM
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2344] Re: Language learning and children



--- Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com> wrote:


> For what it is worth I do not believe that

> "if a child is not exposed to a sound in the first

> three years of life, then

> the ability for the brain to recognize that sound

> later (when learning a

> second language) is limited, or even precluded."

> I simply know too many exceptions to that rule,

> including myself. It is not

> true for all. It may be true for some.

> 

> I believe that the brain is a Darwinian space. If a

> child is exposed to more

> than one language, this will develop an ability to

> process the sounds and

> structure of that language to some extent. If that

> is not continued this

> ability will decline. But reviving that ability will

> be easier, I believe,

> than starting from scratch. In either case, the

> motivation of the learner,

> the willingness to project oneself into the position

> of a speaker of another

> language, the position of a member of another

> cultural community,this

> attitude will be the most important factor. If a

> child can enjoy stories of

> another culture, and can enjoy the music and

> structure of another language,

> this will prepare the child for serious study

later.<<

That sounds like my son's experience of Arabic. When
living in a suburb of Paris, he picked up Arabic from
his babysitter who was Algerian and our neighbours who
were Tunisian. When he was 4 we moved to the US and
English replaced Arabic. We returned to France 5 years
ago and his teacher who was Tunisian told us that our
son's pronunciation of Arabic sounds was perfect. My
son told me he sometimes felt he had a filing cabinet
inside his brain and sounds just came out right.
Thought that was a good description, because it has
spurred his desire to learn languages, especially
Arabic.



> As Rubem Alves, famous Brazilian educator said

> 

> *Se o conhecimento científico  de anatomia fosse

> condição para se fazer

> amor, os professores de  anatomia seriam amantes

> insuperáveis. Se o

> conhecimento acadêmico  da gramática fosse condição

> para se fazer

> literatura, os  gramáticos seria escritores

> insuperáveis. Mas essa não é a

> verdade. ...

> 

> Gramática se faz com palavras mortas. Literatura se

> faz com palavras vivas.*

> 

> "If the scientific knowledge of anatomy were a

> condition for making love,

> professors of anatomy would be unrivaled lovers. If

> the academic knowledge

> of grammar were a condition for making literature,

> grammarians would be

> unrivaled writers. But this is not the case.....

> 

> Grammar is made with words that are dead. Literature

> is made with words that

> are alive."

> So let's teach the love of the language, not the

> academic details.,,


How beautiful! 
Thanks very much for reminding us that language is
about poetry, discovery....
Ujwala


> 

> Steve

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 5:16 AM, Martin Senger

> <MSenger at gecac.org> wrote:

> 

> >  Pax all!

> >

> >

> >

> > I think I should clarify what I am proposing. I

> was just wondering if

> > someone passively exposed a child (less than three

> years of age) to the

> > sounds of different languages, would that child

> retain the *ability to

> > recognize those sounds* later in life. Some

> research states that if a

> > child is not exposed to a sound in the first three

> years of life, then the

> > ability for the brain to recognize that sound

> later (when learning a second

> > language) is limited, or even precluded.

> >

> >

> >

> > Also, to play devil's advocate, would passive

> learning on a limited basis

> > (recorded samples of a language) provide any

> long-term benefit for second

> > language acquisition? I am not a researcher, nor a

> holder of advanced

> > degrees; I am simply an ESL teacher with a curious

> mind!

> >

> >

> >

> > Martin E. Senger

> >

> > Adult ESL Teacher

> >

> > GECAC / The R. Benjamin Wiley Learning Center

> >

> > Erie, Pa

> >

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > *From:* englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:

> > englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] *On Behalf Of

> *Martin Senger

> > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:07 PM

> > *To:* The Adult English Language Learners

> Discussion List

> > *Subject:* [EnglishLanguage 2331] Multiple

> language learning

> >

> >

> >

> > Pax all!

> >

> >

> >

> > Praised be for the Internet! I did a quick google,

> and found the tem

> > "hypnopedia." It refers explicitly to learning

> while sleeping. While pretty

> > much debunked for general learning, I saw nothing

> which talks strictly about

> > sound processing. Just from my own experience,

> there may be something to it.

> > I know, from the aforementioned 4 & 2-year olds,

> if they make even the

> > slightest "odd" sound while I am sleeping, I am

> instantly wide awake. I then

> > listen intently (hence the "wide awake") to hear

> any follow-up sounds worth

> > investigating. So, that must mean my brain is in

> some way processing some

> > sounds.

> >

> >

> >

> > Now I am not saying you could learn another

> "language" while sleeping, but

> > is it possible that we could introduce, or maybe

> even "teach" new language

> > sounds to the sleeping brain? What say you?

> >

> >

> >

> > Martin E. Senger

> >

> > Adult ESL Teacher

> >

> > GECAC / The R. Benjamin Wiley Learning Center

> >

> > Erie, Pa

> >

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > *From:* englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:

> > englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] *On Behalf Of

> *Andrea Canter

> > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:04 PM

> > *To:* englishlanguage at nifl.gov

> > *Subject:* [EnglishLanguage 2328] Re:

> EnglishLanguage Digest, Vol 32,

> > Issue 15

> >

> >

> >

> > Robin,

> >

> > Are their books pretty accessible to lay-people?

> >

> > Andrea

> >

> >  On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:23 AM,

> <englishlanguage-request at nifl.gov> wrote:

> >

> > Send EnglishLanguage mailing list submissions to

> >        englishlanguage at nifl.gov

> >

> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide

> Web, visit

> >       

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/englishlanguage

> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body

> 'help' to

> >        englishlanguage-request at nifl.gov

> >

> > You can reach the person managing the list at

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> >

> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it

> is more specific

> 

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