Yes, Ted be careful on passing judgment on those that are not able to
attend classes, perhaps due to time constraints; e.g. working two jobs,
keeping a house or busy with their children activities or for cultural
reason; e.g. women that are not allowed access to these services....
Not a lack of ambition...

 

 

Ms. Gary Bartolina, Program Manager
Adult Education Basics
NYS & CSEA  Partnership for Education & Training
Corporate Plaza East - Suite 502
240 Washington Avenue Extension
Albany, NY 12203
Phone: 518-473-4990
Fax: 518-473-9457
bartolinag at nyscseapartnership.org
<mailto:bartolinag at nyscseapartnership.org> 
www.nyscseapartnership.org <http://www.nyscseapartnership.org/> 
"A love affair with knowledge will never end in heartbreak."
(Michael Garrett Marino) 
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-----Original Message-----
From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
carolkubota at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 8:33 AM
To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2868] Re: citizenship

 

What do you mean by "run of the mill immigrant". 

 

Carol

 

--
Director/Language and Culture Specialist 
Battle Creek Language and Culture Center 
7 Heritage Oak Lane #4 
Battle Creek, Mi 49015 
269-979-8432 
http://www.bclanguageculture.com 
carolkubota at comcast.net

 

	-------------- Original message -------------- 
	From: "Ted Klein" <taklein at austin.rr.com> 

	Let's also not forget that the individuals who want the best
economic opportunities need English the most. The $ is a great
motivator. I've noticed that most of my immigrant students are innately
ambitious, compared to the run-of-the-mill immigrant. The first week I
always ask my students why they want to learn English. The ones who want
better jobs, promotions or more education are the winners by the end of
the term.

	 

	Ted

	www.tedklein-ESL.com <http://www.tedklein-esl.com/> 

		----- Original Message ----- 

		From: Steve Kaufmann <mailto:steve at thelinguist.com>  

		To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List
<mailto:englishlanguage at nifl.gov>  

		Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 11:34 AM

		Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2834] Re: citizenship

		 

		Eduardo,
		
		It has been my experience that people learn languages
best from content that is of interest to them. Therefore they should
have the freedom to choose what content to study. For some it may be
reading about their home countries in English, for others it may be
listening to and reading about the experiences of the people from their
home country who have succeeded in the US, and some may want to read
about things that are completely new to them. All of these options and
more should be offered in sound and text format.
		
		When I learn a language, I see myself as one of 'them',
and I want to join their discussion. Right now I regularly download
content from a Russian radio station, where there is plenty of
interesting discussions about history, food, travel, politics and
business and more. I would love to join the discussion as one of them,
not as a Canadian. My own culture is irrelevant when I study another
language and culture.
		
		Steve
		
		

		On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Eduardo Honold
<ehonol at sisd.net> wrote:

		Steve:

		 

		I completely agree.  The issue is language.   Yet, your
assertion that "promoting diversity or celebrating their differences,
does not speed up language learning. It is, in fact, unnecessary since
that is the natural tendency with first generation immigrants," is not
supported by any evidence.  Over the past 8 years, we have been working
with actual immigrants in a demonstration EL Civics project in Socorro,
Texas.  We have found that talking about the immigrant experience,
students' own cultures and experiences in their own countries makes
perfect language sense.  We all know how difficult it is for
newly-arrived immigrants to use whatever language they have learned in
their classes.  But we all know they are initially more likely to use
English in reference to topics, feelings, and ideas that are already
familiar and important to them.  The language principle involve d here
is scaffolding.  Students move from familiar to unfamiliar material.  So
we have them bring an artifact of their own culture or a family
photograph to show to the rest of the class and explain its
significance.  We have them write their autobiographies and compile them
as book for all the class to read and discuss.  Students are eager to
tell us their stories, to tell us why they left their country, to
discuss their emotions about the immigrant experience.  At the same time
we are helping their new immigrants to explore their new communities
(e.g. creating community maps, visiting libraries and museums) and to
learn about cultural norms and expectations of  their new society
through problem-solving scenarios, skits and plays.  As with Ted's
survey, we have them think about similarities and differences in the
experiences they have encountered here and in their native countries.
So, for instance, they can compare holiday celebrations in the U nited
States and Mexico or how bosses in both countries are likely to react to
an employee being late to work.  The fact that they have their own
experience to rely upon makes their answers much richer and
communicative.  And of course that is another basic tenet of adult
learning:  leveraging your students' vast background knowledge and
experience. The success of this approach to language learning is
supported by excellent student performance in standardized tests (these
students are twice as likely to advance an NRS level than the national
average) and above-average student retention.  You can take a look at
some of this work in www. bordercivics.org <http://bordercivics.org/> 

		 

		I think we can agree that participating in the
"mainstream culture" and being aware of your own culture is not an
either/or proposition, but I have to disagree with this swipe you took
at me:  "Encouraging newcomers to connect with the mainstream culture,
which is my no means limited to Donald Duck or whatever caricature was
used by Eduardo, is helpful to language learning."  My point in my
earlier post was clearly that the American experience cannot be reduced
to any particular set of cultural referents and that the "mainstream,"
as you like to call it, may not be very easily defined.  So let's play
fair. By the way, I love Donald Duck.  

		 

		I was also intrigued by your final comment ("But it is
hard to learn a people's language if you do not want to join their
group. I speak from experience.")  You mean to say that you have
"joined" the culture "groups" of the 12 languages you have learned?  If
so, you truly are the embodiment of multiculturalism.

		 

		Eduardo

		 

		 

		Eduardo Honold

		Far West Project GREAT Coordinator

		(915) 937-1703  

		fax: (915) 937-1795

		SISD Community Services

		313 S. Rio Vista Rd.

		El Paso, TX 79927

		www.farwestgreat.org <http://www.farwestgreat.org/> 

		
________________________________


		From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Steve Kaufmann
		Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:31 PM 

		
		To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

		Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2819] Re: citizenship 

		 

		 

		The issue here is language. Encouraging newcomers to
connect with the mainstream culture, which is my no means limited to
Donald Duck or whatever caricature was used by Eduardo, is helpful to
language learning. Promoting diversity or celebrating their differences,
does not speed up language learning.It is, in fact, unnecessary since
that is the natural tendency with first generation immigrants.
		
		People will do what people will do. It is not for the
state to promote either the melting pot or multicultural model. It is,
however, incorrect to say, as Michael does, that the melting pot tries
to make every one a WASP. I am not a WASP, my wife is part Chinese and
part Hispanic, we speak lots of languages and enjoy lots of cultures,
but we consider ourselves part of the mainstream, and effectively melted
in the pot.
		
		It is possible to participate in the mainstream culture
and develop and maintain whatev er oth er cultural activities or
affiliation one wants, ancestral or otherwise.
		
		But it is hard to learn a people's language if you do
not want to join their group. I speak from experience.
		
		Steve
		
		
		-- 
		Steve Kaufmann
		www.lingq.com <http://www.lingq.com/> 
		1-604-922-8514

		
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		-- 
		Steve Kaufmann
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04-922-8514

		
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