I have a problem with making generalizations or judgments about any group of
people and "run of the mill" and "staying home to drink tea" are such.  One
cannot assume what kinds of issues people face in their daily lives that may
prevent them from coming to class.  I am surprised and disappointed by these
comments.
Sally

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Ted Klein <taklein at austin.rr.com> wrote:


>  The ones who don't come to your class, stay home, and drink tea are "run

> of the mill." Your students are more motivated. They are

> above average! Most of my students are immigrants from Mexico and Latin

> America who are also motivated. It is possible to live in Austin, Texas for

> decades and not acquire English. It's also easier. Those who do their best

> to fit in with the rest of our society are also above average. Of course,

> some have too much other real stuff in the way to spare the time. The same

> thing happens to U.S. American retirees in Latin America. They either hang

> out 100% with other English speakers, watch TV in English, only go shopping

> or to restaurants where people speak English, or enjoy the pleasure of

> expanding their horizons. When I'm overseas, I don't live in American

> neighborhoods for the same reasons.

>

>  Ted

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* carolkubota at comcast.net

> *To:* The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:13 PM

> *Subject:* [EnglishLanguage 2876] Re: citizenship

>

> Ted,

>

> I am still not sure what you mean.  Most of my students are Japanese wives

> who have been transplanted here by Japanese companies who have moved their

> families. They do not work and are very interested in learning English.

>

> Are they "run of the mill"?

>

> Carol

>

> --

> Director/Language and Culture Specialist

> Battle Creek Language and Culture Center

> 7 Heritage Oak Lane #4

> Battle Creek, Mi 49015

> 269-979-8432

> http://www.bclanguageculture.com

> carolkubota at comcast.net

>

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

> From: "Ted Klein" <taklein at austin.rr.com>

> Carol,

>

> To me "run of the mill" means "average." I hope that you didn't get the

> impression that I was being negative. The people who take the time, trouble

> and sometimes loss-of-wages to study English are usually not "average." They

> want more out of their life here.

>

> Ted

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* carolkubota at comcast.net

> *To:* The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 24, 2008 7:32 AM

> *Subject:* [EnglishLanguage 2868] Re: citizenship

>

> What do you mean by "run of the mill immigrant".

>

> Carol

>

> --

> Director/Language and Culture Specialist

> Battle Creek Language and Culture Center

> 7 Heritage Oak Lane #4

> Battle Creek, Mi 49015

> 269-979-8432

> http://www.bclanguageculture.com

> carolkubota at comcast.net

>

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

> From: "Ted Klein" <taklein at austin.rr.com>

> Let's also not forget that the individuals who want the best economic

> opportunities need English the most. The $ is a great motivator. I've

> noticed that most of my immigrant students are innately ambitious, compared

> to the run-of-the-mill immigrant. The first week I always ask my students

> why they want to learn English. The ones who want better jobs, promotions or

> more education are the winners by the end of the term.

>

> Ted

> www.tedklein-ESL.com <http://www.tedklein-esl.com/>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com>

> *To:* The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List<englishlanguage at nifl.gov>

> *Sent:* Monday, September 22, 2008 11:34 AM

> *Subject:* [EnglishLanguage 2834] Re: citizenship

>

> Eduardo,

>

> It has been my experience that people learn languages best from content

> that is of interest to them. Therefore they should have the freedom to

> choose what content to study. For some it may be reading about their home

> countries in English, for others it may be listening to and reading about

> the experiences of the people from their home country who have succeeded in

> the US, and some may want to read about things that are completely new to

> them. All of these options and more should be offered in sound and text

> format.

>

> When I learn a language, I see myself as one of 'them', and I want to join

> their discussion. Right now I regularly download content from a Russian

> radio station, where there is plenty of interesting discussions about

> history, food, travel, politics and business and more. I would love to join

> the discussion as one of them, not as a Canadian. My own culture is

> irrelevant when I study another language and culture.

>

> Steve

> * On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Eduardo Honold <ehonol at sisd.net> wrote:

>

>>  Steve:

>>

>>

>>

>> I completely agree.  The issue is language.   Yet, your assertion that

>> "promoting diversity or celebrating their differences, does not speed up

>> language learning. It is, in fact, unnecessary since that is the natural

>> tendency with first generation immigrants," is not supported by any

>> evidence.  Over the past 8 years, we have been working with actual

>> immigrants in a demonstration EL Civics project in Socorro, Texas.  We have

>> found that talking about the immigrant experience, students' own cultures

>> and experiences in their own countries makes perfect language sense.  We all

>> know how difficult it is for newly-arrived immigrants to use whatever

>> language they have learned in their classes.  But we all know they are

>> initially more likely to use English in reference to topics, feelings, and

>> ideas that are already familiar and important to them.  The language

>> principle involve d her e is scaffolding.  Students move from familiar to

>> unfamiliar material.  So we have them bring an artifact of their own culture

>> or a family photograph to show to the rest of the class and explain its

>> significance.  We have them write their autobiographies and compile them as

>> book for all the class to read and discuss.  Students are eager to tell us

>> their stories, to tell us why they left their country, to discuss their

>> emotions about the immigrant experience.  At the same time we are helping

>> their new immigrants to explore their new communities (e.g. creating

>> community maps, visiting libraries and museums) and to learn about cultural

>> norms and expectations of  their new society through problem-solving

>> scenarios, skits and plays.  As with Ted's survey, we have them think about

>> similarities and differences in the experiences they have encountered here

>> and in their native countries.  So, for instance, they can compare holiday

>> celebrations i n the U nited States and Mexico or how bosses in both

>> countries are likely to react to an employee being late to work.  The fact

>> that they have their own experience to rely upon makes their answers much

>> richer and communicative.  And of course that is another basic tenet of

>> adult learning:  leveraging your students' vast background knowledge and

>> experience. The success of this approach to language learning is supported

>> by excellent student performance in standardized tests (these students are

>> twice as likely to advance an NRS level than the national average) and

>> above-average student retention.  You can take a look at some of this work

>> in www. bordercivics.org

>>

>>

>>

>> I think we can agree that participating in the "mainstream culture" and

>> being aware of your own culture is not an either/or proposition, but I have

>> to disagree with this swipe you took at me:  "Encouraging newcomers to

>> connect with the mainstream culture, which is my no means limited to Donald

>> Duck or whatever caricature was used by Eduardo, is helpful to language

>> learning."  My point in my earlier post was clearly that the American

>> experience cannot be reduced to any particular set of cultural referents and

>> that the "mainstream," as you like to call it, may not be very easily

>> defined.  So let's play fair. By the way, I love Donald Duck.

>>

>>

>>

>> I was also intrigued by your final comment ("But it is hard to learn a

>> people's language if you do not want to join their group. I speak from

>> experience.")  You mean to say that you have "joined" the culture "groups"

>> of the 12 languages you have learned?  If so, you truly are the embodiment

>> of multiculturalism.

>>

>>

>>

>> Eduardo

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Eduardo Honold

>>

>> Far West Project GREAT Coordinator

>>

>> (915) 937-1703

>>

>> fax: (915) 937-1795

>>

>> SISD Community Services

>>

>> 313 S. Rio Vista Rd.

>>

>> El Paso, TX 79927

>>

>> www.farwestgreat.org

>>  ------------------------------

>>

>> From: englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:

>> englishlanguage-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Steve Kaufmann

>> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:31 PM

>> To: The Adult English Language Learners Discussion List

>> Subject: [EnglishLanguage 2819] Re: citizenship

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> The issue here is language. Encouraging newcomers to connect with the

>> mainstream culture, which is my no means limited to Donald Duck or whatever

>> caricature was used by Eduardo, is helpful to language learning. Promoting

>> diversity or celebrating their differences, does not speed up language

>> learning.It is, in fact, unnecessary since that is the natural tendency with

>> first generation immigrants.

>>

>> People will do what people will do. It is not for the state to promote

>> either the melting pot or multicultural model. It is, however, incorrect to

>> say, as Michael does, that the melting pot tries to make every one a WASP. I

>> am not a WASP, my wife is part Chinese and part Hispanic, we speak lots of

>> languages and enjoy lots of cultures, but we consider ourselves part of the

>> mainstream, and effectively melted in the pot.

>>

>> It is possible to participate in the mainstream culture and develop and

>> maintain whatev er ot h er cultural activities or affiliation one wants,

>> ancestral or otherwise.

>>

>> But it is hard to learn a people's language if you do not want to join

>> their group. I speak from experience.

>>

>> Steve

>>

>>

>> --

>> Steve Kaufmann

>> www.lingq.com

>> 1-604-922-8514

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Adult English Language Learners mailing list

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>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

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>> Email delivered to steve at thelinguist.com

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Steve Kaufmann

> www.lingq.com< BR>1-6 04-922-8514

> *

>

> ------------------------------

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