Hi there,

I haven't absorbed all of what you said, so let me take a little piece  
of it.  The program ran for one summer, there were no reading gains.   
The  funder withdrew support, that is, DID NOT WANT any further  
research done.

With all these programs, I ask:  WHO IS MAKING THE MONEY?

My feeling:  put the knowledge in the teacher, not in the program.

Andrea



On Nov 30, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Maureen Carro wrote:


> Thank you Andrea, for the information about the Lindamood Bell  

> research.  I knew their programs were involved in some research, but  

> had not heard of any findings.  The one you are referring to sounds  

> like the LIPS program which is used to remediate phonemic awareness,  

> phonics, improve decoding/encoding skills etc.  I know the periods of  

> intervention on these research projects is not too long, and therefore  

> , I suppose it is understandable that improvement is seen in specific  

> areas, but may not show a "generalization" to reading after such a  

> short time.  In my own personal experience, it takes years sometimes  

> before "everything kicks in" for fluent reading with good  

> comprehension.  I like the LIPS program for its "phonemic awareness  

> components", but shift to other methods once that underlying skill  

> begins to develop.  The exercises I do are with sounds only, no  

> letters.  Mental manipulation of sounds is an underlying skill shown  

> to be fundamental to reading text.  Lots of games here!

>

> Lindamood's Visualization and Verbalization program is the one that is  

> used as an intervention for reading COMPREHENSION, specifically to  

> improve visualization.  I am wondering if that has been used in any  

> reseaerch.  Anyone out there know?

> In my opinion, however, there are other factors that may be  

> interfering with a student's ability to comprehend.  With a HS  

> student, such as Maureen's son ( subject of another discussion topic),  

> I would certainly investigate that along with other things that may be  

> impeding his comprehension. He appears to already be a good decoder.   

> I often use Google Images to seek out pictures of people and objects  

> in a historical setting so students might better visualize how the  

> characters might look, dress, etc.  and what specific objects look  

> like that they have never seen.  I call this "clarification" and teach  

> them to do it for themselves when they read rather than just  

> "blitzing" by.   HS students need to learn how they can help  

> themselves!  The Lindamood V_V program is very structured, and may be  

> a good start for some.  There are a number of other strategies to  

> enhance comprehension.

>

> Reading is such a complex task!  This is a good reason why a  good  

> diagnostic assessment is necessary to pinpoint areas of deficit, but  

> ALWAYS, the goal is reading text to enjoy and learn something new!   

> That takes COMPREHENSION.  I try in every session to close with at  

> least a short literary piece even if I am mostly working on decoding  

> (because that is the deficit).  The student needs to know WHY they are  

> doing all this!!  I find that many students who are poor decoders  

> still comprehend very well what is read to them!

>

> On Nov 30, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Kohring, Aaron M wrote:

>

>> Andrea,

>>  

>> I wonder if the MIT researcher's study focused on the same issue I've  

>> seen in some classrooms- where the concentration is on the decoding  

>> and is not contextualized.  In other words, students spend lots of  

>> time decoding words out of context and not connecting it back to real  

>> text and building comprehension.

>> ??

>> Aaron

>>  

>>

>> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov  

>> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea  

>> Wilder

>> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:24 PM

>> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 782] Re: A view of learning  

>> disabilitiesfromaconsultant's prespective

>>

>> All--

>>

>> I need to clear something up. I know about Lindamood-Bell techniques.  

>> I have listened to a researcher here at MIT who ran a study one  

>> summer, at the request of the company that makes Lindamood-Bell  

>> materials, or has a hand in their distribution. The finding was that  

>> students increased in their ability to distinguish individual sounds,  

>> but this increase did not generalize to reading. Any reactions to  

>> this? I believe the researcher, absolutely, but in what ways does the  

>> program increase literacy skills in children? Any reactions from the  

>> field? Observations?

>>

>> Thanks.

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>>

>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Lucille Cuttler wrote:

>>

>>> May I suggest that the right question is to ask what teaching  

>>> approaches have been used thus far to remediate comprehension  

>>> difficulties?  Does the student know how to ask questions about the  

>>> material?  Is the obhjective to make a diagnosis merely for the sake  

>>> of diagnosis?  Or is the objective to improve comprehension skills.   

>>> If the latter, then you will find a search of catalogs from Academic  

>>> Therapy and EPS.  Qualified tutors trained and certified in  

>>> Orton-Gillingham and Lindamood Bell will be helpful.  Lucille  

>>> Cuttler

>>>> -----Original Message-----

>>>> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov  

>>>> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of maureen

>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:09 PM

>>>> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>>>> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 778] Re: A view of learning  

>>>> disabilities fromaconsultant's prespective

>>>>

>>>> Thank you for your reply.  It was helpful and did answer some of my  

>>>> questions. 

>>>> I have an additional question for all of you out there.  Does  

>>>> anyone know of standardized test which will identify a reading  

>>>> comprehension problem which is extreme but does not show up on the  

>>>> "typical" tests.  My son scores at grade level on most tests  

>>>> because he can process and integrate small chunks of information.   

>>>> I need to show that he has a problem with integrating, processing,  

>>>> and therefore comprehending information which is in more "real  

>>>> life" situations, such as reading a book of any kind.  He cannot  

>>>> complete an assignment that is just two pages long because although  

>>>> he can "read" the words very well, he cannot interpret what he's  

>>>> read, find the themes, etc.  If anyone knows of such a test, please  

>>>> let me know.  His neuropsychologist is looking for such a measure  

>>>> too.

>>>> Thanks,

>>>> Maureen

>>>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>>>> From: Judith Sinclair

>>>>> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List ; RKenyon721 at aol.com

>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:53 AM

>>>>> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 777] A view of learning  

>>>>> disabilities from aconsultant's prespective

>>>>>

>>>>> Hello, Miriam, Josh, Maureen, and all members of this wonderful  

>>>>> list:

>>>>>

>>>>> I could not help but be impressed with the personal stories you  

>>>>> have shared about your own experiences with learning disabilities,  

>>>>> and your sensitive descriptions of inherent problems and possible  

>>>>> solutions.  For many years I have worked with individuals with  

>>>>> learning disabilities as an educational consultant and advocate,  

>>>>> and continue to do so today as part of my professional  

>>>>> activities.  Consequently, I have learned a great deal about the  

>>>>> effect of learning disabilities from people who have them,  

>>>>> including how it affects their lives and the lives of those around  

>>>>> them.  In essence, the effect leaves no one out—not the members of  

>>>>> the affected individual’s family, school system, or community.   

>>>>> The inherent issues and ramifications are often complex.  So to  

>>>>> help, here are just a few things I would like to share, if you  

>>>>> have a moment. 

>>>>>

>>>>> 1.  From my own observation, many learning disabled people go  

>>>>> through most if not all of their school and career lives never  

>>>>> knowing that they are learning disabled.  This occurs often  

>>>>> because of their ability to compensate, that is, to adjust their  

>>>>> thoughts and behaviors to social and other needs in their everyday  

>>>>> lives so that the problem(s) is obscured.  For example, a child  

>>>>> may not be able to read, but will pretend to read, thus risking  

>>>>> the attendant poor grades.  An adolescent with an undiagnosed  

>>>>> hearing loss may effect a certain stance, not out of style but in  

>>>>> an effort to hear better.  An adult may see him or herself as a  

>>>>> “slow reader,” yet for a variety of reasons not be consciously  

>>>>> aware of an actual disability.

>>>>>

>>>>> 2. What may appear at first to be an individual’s learning  

>>>>> disability may in reality be some other kind of learning  

>>>>> difficulty, or it may be that the person has a learning disability  

>>>>> as well as some other mental condition.  For an accurate  

>>>>> diagnosis, the individual’s condition must fit the accepted  

>>>>> criteria and characteristics for this diagnosis (see the  

>>>>> Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders for the  

>>>>> exact criteria).  Students may be delayed in learning for other  

>>>>> reasons, including environmental.  For example, children suffering  

>>>>> from abuse are unable to process information efficiently, yet  

>>>>> often display signs indicating “special needs” or a learning  

>>>>> disability. 

>>>>>

>>>>> 3.  Many people who are diagnosed as learning disabled fail to get  

>>>>> a complete report of their true condition, thus limiting their  

>>>>> chances for a full life.  For example, an individual may be  

>>>>> diagnosed with a reading problem, yet in the interests of time  

>>>>> and/or money and/or facilities the examiner fails to notice/test  

>>>>> for a hearing loss, as well.  This situation appears to be most  

>>>>> prevalent with the assessment of children, who often are unaware  

>>>>> of an additional disability or too reticent to report it.

>>>>>

>>>>> 4.  In my experience, learning disabilities are not transient in  

>>>>> nature but permanent, in that while they may be addressed early  

>>>>> they never really go away.  Left untreated and without adequate  

>>>>> personal compensation, the condition may worsen.  Consequently,  

>>>>> the earlier and more complete the assessment and diagnosis, the  

>>>>> better.  However, not only early assessment but constant  

>>>>> monitoring and management are essential.  Developmental changes  

>>>>> along an individual’s life path must be considered at each  

>>>>> appropriate time, and revised or possibly new solutions examined  

>>>>> to prevent regression. 

>>>>>

>>>>> 5. Learning disabilities are not simply a cognitive manifestation,  

>>>>> as is sometimes thought, for evidence of the problem(s) presents  

>>>>> in the learning disabled person’s social, emotional,  

>>>>> psychological, and spiritual expressions, even though the  

>>>>> individual’s learning disability problems have been diagnosed and  

>>>>> theoretically dealt with.  In sum, learning disabilities affect  

>>>>> every aspect of an affected individual’s life.  In my opinion, it  

>>>>> is always a good idea to have a learning disabled person evaluated  

>>>>> fully for the presence/absence of other problems, and treatment  

>>>>> available for all additional diagnoses, and for all aspects of the  

>>>>> presentation (see below).

>>>>>

>>>>> 6.  In my experience, the frustration encountered by almost all  

>>>>> learning-disabled people who have average or above-average  

>>>>> intelligence as they attempt to reach their life and career goals  

>>>>> is incalculable.  This diagnosis along with the constant need for  

>>>>> compensation and adjustment serves so many times to keep the idea  

>>>>> of the disabilities or the disabilities themselves at the  

>>>>> forefront of the affected person’s mind.  Consider, for example,  

>>>>> the individual with a reading LD.  While he/she may have been  

>>>>> diagnosed early and treated successfully, the core of the problem  

>>>>> itself remains part of the person’s life.  The person may know how  

>>>>> to adjust for their diagnosed dyslexia, but is still fully aware  

>>>>> that he or she has this condition and must constantly compensate  

>>>>> for it.  This awareness sometimes prevents people from following  

>>>>> their dreams and pursuing their goals, because they have in mind  

>>>>> that despite all measures of relief they are somehow tainted.   

>>>>> This is especially true in a society that prizes perfection and  

>>>>> excellence above all else.

>>>>>

>>>>> 7.  There are various treatments available for people with  

>>>>> learning disabilities.  These include the relatively well-known  

>>>>> and accepted forms of therapy, medication, family and community  

>>>>> support, and school intervention.  I have also found that people  

>>>>> with learning disabilities profit from the experience of working  

>>>>> one of one with a learning disabilities professional who  

>>>>> understands the full implication of the diagnosis, and can work  

>>>>> with the individual to set impressive yet realistic goals, and  

>>>>> implement manageable strategies to reach them.  For example, a  

>>>>> young person with a reading disability who wants to become a  

>>>>> lawyer needs to know that there are provisions for learning  

>>>>> disabled people now in some law schools that will provide the  

>>>>> services and structure required of a law program.  This person  

>>>>> also needs to become acquainted with lawyers who have succeeded  

>>>>> and who are also in some way learning disabled.  

>>>>>

>>>>> 8.  Most K-12 schools today typically provide some learning  

>>>>> disability services in the form of classes, tutorials, and so on,  

>>>>> depending on the individual student’s diagnosed needs.  And most  

>>>>> colleges and universities offer similar services, although I have  

>>>>> found that this assistance varies from place to place across the  

>>>>> board.  However, despite laws to the contrary, there remain at all  

>>>>> levels institutions that seem to flatly deny the existence of any  

>>>>> condition that could be called a learning disability.  Indeed,  

>>>>> these institutions insist that the diagnosed student is instead  

>>>>> lazy, disorganized, mentally disturbed, and so on.  This is an  

>>>>> unfortunate condition, and if encountered requires delicate  

>>>>> management and/or outside help.

>>>>>

>>>>> 9.  Most K-12 schools also offer some form of learning disability  

>>>>> assessment.  Herein lies the rub, as they say.  The diagnosis  

>>>>> provided may or may not be accurate and complete, two factors that  

>>>>> must be present if proper and adequate treatment is to be given.   

>>>>> All too often I have seen the diagnosis of a student left to  

>>>>> someone who was not properly trained, lacked cultural and social  

>>>>> sensitivities, was not fully aware of what the label “LD” meant to  

>>>>> the student now and in the future, and/or had certain biases  

>>>>> toward segments of the population.  Parent have often complained  

>>>>> that the school provided diagnostics were unfair, incomplete, and  

>>>>> or inaccurate, and it has been just as often my unfortunate  

>>>>> experience to find that the parents were right. 

>>>>>

>>>>> What are the options?  If the parents can afford it, there are  

>>>>> outside testing facilities for students of all ages that can  

>>>>> provide appropriate, complete, and accurate assessments of a  

>>>>> student’s level and category of LD.  It is important to find out  

>>>>> in advance, however, how reliable these institutions are, and  

>>>>> whether they are fairly priced as viewed by the wider community.   

>>>>> If the parents cannot pay much or perhaps at all, they are left to  

>>>>> the mercies of outside agencies, both for-and non-profit.  Here  

>>>>> again the outcomes may be on the mark or less than desirable.  I  

>>>>> have seen both good and poor results.  But testing is merely part  

>>>>> of the equation, and only initiates years of work ahead.   

>>>>> Sometimes parents can proceed on their own successfully, and  

>>>>> sometimes not; it depends on their work schedules, attitudes,  

>>>>> other demands, personal problems and health, for example.

>>>>>

>>>>> Hiring individual help may be a good idea, if, and I emphasize the  

>>>>> “if,” a qualified educational consultant and advocate can be  

>>>>> found.  Both of these characteristics must be present: the person  

>>>>> you select should be an experienced and educated professional, one  

>>>>> who has worked extensively in the school system, and knows how the  

>>>>> system really works.  In addition to knowing and providing the  

>>>>> precise method of approach to the schools to obtain the desired  

>>>>> goal, the consultant must also have in their heart the ability to  

>>>>> champion the rights of the student.  I say this out of my own  

>>>>> experience over many years, as I witnessed both good and bad  

>>>>> consultants and advocates hired by concerned, often desperate  

>>>>> parents seeking help for their children.  The good ones worked  

>>>>> wonders.  They were knowledgeable, articulate, analytical, and  

>>>>> prepared.  The bad ones caused havoc and pain.  They were  

>>>>> short-sighted, lacked enough education and preparation, and let  

>>>>> the school system run rampant over the case. 

>>>>>

>>>>> What should you look for in a good educational consultant and  

>>>>> advocate?  As I began above, both the ability to perceive the real  

>>>>> problems in each case, and not just the ones provided by the  

>>>>> school system and family, and the real solutions to each case,  

>>>>> that is, what in realistic terms can be done within and without  

>>>>> the system to help each child.  Each case is as varied as the  

>>>>> colors of the rainbow, a good consultant knows, and each case  

>>>>> requires full concentration, adequate education and preparation,  

>>>>> professional manner, adequate time, and a firm, fixed agenda. 

>>>>>

>>>>> In terms of fees, I have seen perfectly decent people working for  

>>>>> as little as $50 an hour, and I have seen people who should never  

>>>>> have been allowed near the case charging $400 an hour and more.   

>>>>> There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the pricing, and often it  

>>>>> is what the community will bear.  Here in the Washington, DC metro  

>>>>> area most consultants and/or advocates charge from $100 to almost  

>>>>> $1000 per session, with more for special services, depending on  

>>>>> what they advertise they can do for you and your youngster.   

>>>>> Amazing but true.

>>>>>

>>>>> What you want to look for is someone you like and trust, first, so  

>>>>> that the time you and your child spend with them will be  

>>>>> production.  You also want someone who is educated in the field  

>>>>> and can prove it, and someone who will spend time with you as a  

>>>>> parent, your child as a student, you and your child as a team, the  

>>>>> student’s school, the school’s administration, the school system  

>>>>> administration, the many meetings that are inevitable, available  

>>>>> resources and alternatives, available treatments and options, and  

>>>>> access to potentially necessary extended help.  It is also a good  

>>>>> idea to know if the person works with any lawyers who specialized  

>>>>> in education law, “just in case.”  While you may or may not need,  

>>>>> ultimately, to seek counsel, it is always a good idea to have “on  

>>>>> tap” a name or two of law firms that you have already checked  

>>>>> out. 

>>>>>

>>>>> I would recommend that you explore all of this before deciding  

>>>>> anything.  I would also suggest that you try to work out an  

>>>>> agreement on an hourly basis, with a letter of contract that lets  

>>>>> you out of the relationship if you find out that the person is not  

>>>>> working out.  If they insist on a retainer larger than 5 hours of  

>>>>> their time on an hourly basis, or if they ask for all the money up  

>>>>> front, or any other large money arrangement, after deciding  

>>>>> whether their reasons were sound, I would perhaps look elsewhere.   

>>>>> There are many very good educational consultants and advocates who  

>>>>> do have fair rates and who are more than happy to assist you. 

>>>>>

>>>>> I hope this information is of value to you, and that you will  

>>>>> contact me with any questions you might have. 

>>>>>

>>>>> All best,

>>>>>

>>>>> Dr. Judith Peyton Sinclair

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Contact information:

>>>>>

>>>>> Judith Peyton Sinclair, PhD

>>>>> Cognitive Psychologist and Educator

>>>>> Life and Career Management Services Consultant

>>>>> Telephone 202-364-3893

>>>>> www.sinclairsystem.com

>>>>> j-p-sinclair at worldnet.att.net

>>>>>

>>>>>

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