Andrea,
I agree...the programs with the best marketing strategies seem to be  
the ones that get all the attention.  I agree also that teacher  
training is where the money should be spent.  The programs without a  
skilled and knowledgeable teacher are ineffective, while the skilled  
and knowledgeable teacher can use any materials effectively.  Amen!


On Nov 30, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Andrea Wilder wrote:


> Hi there,

>

> I haven't absorbed all of what you said, so let me take a little piece  

> of it.  The program ran for one summer, there were no reading gains.   

> The  funder withdrew support, that is, DID NOT WANT any further  

> research done.

>

> With all these programs, I ask:  WHO IS MAKING THE MONEY?

>

> My feeling:  put the knowledge in the teacher, not in the program.

>

> Andrea

>

>

>

> On Nov 30, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Maureen Carro wrote:

>

>> Thank you Andrea, for the information about the Lindamood Bell  

>> research.  I knew their programs were involved in some research, but  

>> had not heard of any findings.  The one you are referring to sounds  

>> like the LIPS program which is used to remediate phonemic awareness,  

>> phonics, improve decoding/encoding skills etc.  I know the periods of  

>> intervention on these research projects is not too long, and  

>> therefore , I suppose it is understandable that improvement is seen  

>> in specific areas, but may not show a "generalization" to reading  

>> after such a short time.  In my own personal experience, it takes  

>> years sometimes before "everything kicks in" for fluent reading with  

>> good comprehension.  I like the LIPS program for its "phonemic  

>> awareness components", but shift to other methods once that  

>> underlying skill begins to develop.  The exercises I do are with  

>> sounds only, no letters.  Mental manipulation of sounds is an  

>> underlying skill shown to be fundamental to reading text.  Lots of  

>> games here!

>>

>> Lindamood's Visualization and Verbalization program is the one that  

>> is used as an intervention for reading COMPREHENSION, specifically to  

>> improve visualization.  I am wondering if that has been used in any  

>> reseaerch.  Anyone out there know?

>> In my opinion, however, there are other factors that may be  

>> interfering with a student's ability to comprehend.  With a HS  

>> student, such as Maureen's son ( subject of another discussion  

>> topic), I would certainly investigate that along with other things  

>> that may be impeding his comprehension. He appears to already be a  

>> good decoder.  I often use Google Images to seek out pictures of  

>> people and objects in a historical setting so students might better  

>> visualize how the characters might look, dress, etc.  and what  

>> specific objects look like that they have never seen.  I call this  

>> "clarification" and teach them to do it for themselves when they read  

>> rather than just "blitzing" by.   HS students need to learn how they  

>> can help themselves!  The Lindamood V_V program is very structured,  

>> and may be a good start for some.  There are a number of other  

>> strategies to enhance comprehension.

>>

>> Reading is such a complex task!  This is a good reason why a  good  

>> diagnostic assessment is necessary to pinpoint areas of deficit, but  

>> ALWAYS, the goal is reading text to enjoy and learn something new!   

>> That takes COMPREHENSION.  I try in every session to close with at  

>> least a short literary piece even if I am mostly working on decoding  

>> (because that is the deficit).  The student needs to know WHY they  

>> are doing all this!!  I find that many students who are poor decoders  

>> still comprehend very well what is read to them!

>>

>> On Nov 30, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Kohring, Aaron M wrote:

>>

>>> Andrea,

>>>  

>>> I wonder if the MIT researcher's study focused on the same issue  

>>> I've seen in some classrooms- where the concentration is on the  

>>> decoding and is not contextualized.  In other words, students spend  

>>> lots of time decoding words out of context and not connecting it  

>>> back to real text and building comprehension.

>>> ??

>>> Aaron

>>>  

>>>

>>> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov  

>>> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andrea  

>>> Wilder

>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:24 PM

>>> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>>> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 782] Re: A view of learning  

>>> disabilitiesfromaconsultant's prespective

>>>

>>> All--

>>>

>>> I need to clear something up. I know about Lindamood-Bell  

>>> techniques. I have listened to a researcher here at MIT who ran a  

>>> study one summer, at the request of the company that makes  

>>> Lindamood-Bell materials, or has a hand in their distribution. The  

>>> finding was that students increased in their ability to distinguish  

>>> individual sounds, but this increase did not generalize to reading.  

>>> Any reactions to this? I believe the researcher, absolutely, but in  

>>> what ways does the program increase literacy skills in children? Any  

>>> reactions from the field? Observations?

>>>

>>> Thanks.

>>>

>>> Andrea

>>>

>>>

>>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Lucille Cuttler wrote:

>>>

>>>> May I suggest that the right question is to ask what teaching  

>>>> approaches have been used thus far to remediate comprehension  

>>>> difficulties?  Does the student know how to ask questions about the  

>>>> material?  Is the obhjective to make a diagnosis merely for the  

>>>> sake of diagnosis?  Or is the objective to improve comprehension  

>>>> skills.  If the latter, then you will find a search of catalogs  

>>>> from Academic Therapy and EPS.  Qualified tutors trained and  

>>>> certified in Orton-Gillingham and Lindamood Bell will be helpful.   

>>>> Lucille Cuttler

>>>>> -----Original Message-----

>>>>> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov  

>>>>> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of maureen

>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:09 PM

>>>>> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>>>>> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 778] Re: A view of learning  

>>>>> disabilities fromaconsultant's prespective

>>>>>

>>>>> Thank you for your reply.  It was helpful and did answer some of  

>>>>> my questions. 

>>>>> I have an additional question for all of you out there.  Does  

>>>>> anyone know of standardized test which will identify a reading  

>>>>> comprehension problem which is extreme but does not show up on the  

>>>>> "typical" tests.  My son scores at grade level on most tests  

>>>>> because he can process and integrate small chunks of information.   

>>>>> I need to show that he has a problem with integrating, processing,  

>>>>> and therefore comprehending information which is in more "real  

>>>>> life" situations, such as reading a book of any kind.  He cannot  

>>>>> complete an assignment that is just two pages long because  

>>>>> although he can "read" the words very well, he cannot interpret  

>>>>> what he's read, find the themes, etc.  If anyone knows of such a  

>>>>> test, please let me know.  His neuropsychologist is looking for  

>>>>> such a measure too.

>>>>> Thanks,

>>>>> Maureen

>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>>>>> From: Judith Sinclair

>>>>>> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List ; RKenyon721 at aol.com

>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:53 AM

>>>>>> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 777] A view of learning  

>>>>>> disabilities from aconsultant's prespective

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Hello, Miriam, Josh, Maureen, and all members of this wonderful  

>>>>>> list:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I could not help but be impressed with the personal stories you  

>>>>>> have shared about your own experiences with learning  

>>>>>> disabilities, and your sensitive descriptions of inherent  

>>>>>> problems and possible solutions.  For many years I have worked  

>>>>>> with individuals with learning disabilities as an educational  

>>>>>> consultant and advocate, and continue to do so today as part of  

>>>>>> my professional activities.  Consequently, I have learned a great  

>>>>>> deal about the effect of learning disabilities from people who  

>>>>>> have them, including how it affects their lives and the lives  

>>>>>> of those around them.  In essence, the effect leaves no one  

>>>>>> out—not the members of the affected individual’s family, school  

>>>>>> system, or community.  The inherent issues and ramifications are  

>>>>>> often complex.  So to help, here are just a few things I would  

>>>>>> like to share, if you have a moment. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 1.  From my own observation, many learning disabled people go  

>>>>>> through most if not all of their school and career lives never  

>>>>>> knowing that they are learning disabled.  This occurs often  

>>>>>> because of their ability to compensate, that is, to adjust their  

>>>>>> thoughts and behaviors to social and other needs in their  

>>>>>> everyday lives so that the problem(s) is obscured.  For example,  

>>>>>> a child may not be able to read, but will pretend to read, thus  

>>>>>> risking the attendant poor grades.  An adolescent with an  

>>>>>> undiagnosed hearing loss may effect a certain stance, not out of  

>>>>>> style but in an effort to hear better.  An adult may see him or  

>>>>>> herself as a “slow reader,” yet for a variety of reasons not be  

>>>>>> consciously aware of an actual disability.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 2. What may appear at first to be an individual’s learning  

>>>>>> disability may in reality be some other kind of learning  

>>>>>> difficulty, or it may be that the person has a learning  

>>>>>> disability as well as some other mental condition.  For an  

>>>>>> accurate diagnosis, the individual’s condition must fit the  

>>>>>> accepted criteria and characteristics for this diagnosis (see the  

>>>>>> Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders for the  

>>>>>> exact criteria).  Students may be delayed in learning for other  

>>>>>> reasons, including environmental.  For example, children  

>>>>>> suffering from abuse are unable to process information  

>>>>>> efficiently, yet often display signs indicating “special needs”  

>>>>>> or a learning disability. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 3.  Many people who are diagnosed as learning disabled fail to  

>>>>>> get a complete report of their true condition, thus limiting  

>>>>>> their chances for a full life.  For example, an individual may be  

>>>>>> diagnosed with a reading problem, yet in the interests of time  

>>>>>> and/or money and/or facilities the examiner fails to notice/test  

>>>>>> for a hearing loss, as well.  This situation appears to be most  

>>>>>> prevalent with the assessment of children, who often are unaware  

>>>>>> of an additional disability or too reticent to report it.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 4.  In my experience, learning disabilities are not transient in  

>>>>>> nature but permanent, in that while they may be addressed early  

>>>>>> they never really go away.  Left untreated and without adequate  

>>>>>> personal compensation, the condition may worsen.  Consequently,  

>>>>>> the earlier and more complete the assessment and diagnosis, the  

>>>>>> better.  However, not only early assessment but constant  

>>>>>> monitoring and management are essential.  Developmental changes  

>>>>>> along an individual’s life path must be considered at each  

>>>>>> appropriate time, and revised or possibly new solutions examined  

>>>>>> to prevent regression. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 5. Learning disabilities are not simply a cognitive  

>>>>>> manifestation, as is sometimes thought, for evidence of the  

>>>>>> problem(s) presents in the learning disabled person’s social,  

>>>>>> emotional, psychological, and spiritual expressions, even though  

>>>>>> the individual’s learning disability problems have been diagnosed  

>>>>>> and theoretically dealt with.  In sum, learning disabilities  

>>>>>> affect every aspect of an affected individual’s life.  In my  

>>>>>> opinion, it is always a good idea to have a learning disabled  

>>>>>> person evaluated fully for the presence/absence of other  

>>>>>> problems, and treatment available for all additional diagnoses,  

>>>>>> and for all aspects of the presentation (see below).

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 6.  In my experience, the frustration encountered by almost all  

>>>>>> learning-disabled people who have average or above-average  

>>>>>> intelligence as they attempt to reach their life and career goals  

>>>>>> is incalculable.  This diagnosis along with the constant need for  

>>>>>> compensation and adjustment serves so many times to keep the idea  

>>>>>> of the disabilities or the disabilities themselves at the  

>>>>>> forefront of the affected person’s mind.  Consider, for example,  

>>>>>> the individual with a reading LD.  While he/she may have been  

>>>>>> diagnosed early and treated successfully, the core of the problem  

>>>>>> itself remains part of the person’s life.  The person may know  

>>>>>> how to adjust for their diagnosed dyslexia, but is still fully  

>>>>>> aware that he or she has this condition and must constantly  

>>>>>> compensate for it.  This awareness sometimes prevents people from  

>>>>>> following their dreams and pursuing their goals, because they  

>>>>>> have in mind that despite all measures of relief they are somehow  

>>>>>> tainted.  This is especially true in a society that prizes  

>>>>>> perfection and excellence above all else.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 7.  There are various treatments available for people with  

>>>>>> learning disabilities.  These include the relatively well-known  

>>>>>> and accepted forms of therapy, medication, family and community  

>>>>>> support, and school intervention.  I have also found that people  

>>>>>> with learning disabilities profit from the experience of working  

>>>>>> one of one with a learning disabilities professional who  

>>>>>> understands the full implication of the diagnosis, and can work  

>>>>>> with the individual to set impressive yet realistic goals, and  

>>>>>> implement manageable strategies to reach them.  For example, a  

>>>>>> young person with a reading disability who wants to become a  

>>>>>> lawyer needs to know that there are provisions for learning  

>>>>>> disabled people now in some law schools that will provide the  

>>>>>> services and structure required of a law program.  This person  

>>>>>> also needs to become acquainted with lawyers who have succeeded  

>>>>>> and who are also in some way learning disabled.  

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 8.  Most K-12 schools today typically provide some learning  

>>>>>> disability services in the form of classes, tutorials, and so on,  

>>>>>> depending on the individual student’s diagnosed needs.  And most  

>>>>>> colleges and universities offer similar services, although I have  

>>>>>> found that this assistance varies from place to place across the  

>>>>>> board.  However, despite laws to the contrary, there remain at  

>>>>>> all levels institutions that seem to flatly deny the existence of  

>>>>>> any condition that could be called a learning disability.   

>>>>>> Indeed, these institutions insist that the diagnosed student is  

>>>>>> instead lazy, disorganized, mentally disturbed, and so on.  This  

>>>>>> is an unfortunate condition, and if encountered requires delicate  

>>>>>> management and/or outside help.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 9.  Most K-12 schools also offer some form of learning disability  

>>>>>> assessment.  Herein lies the rub, as they say.  The diagnosis  

>>>>>> provided may or may not be accurate and complete, two factors  

>>>>>> that must be present if proper and adequate treatment is to be  

>>>>>> given.  All too often I have seen the diagnosis of a student left  

>>>>>> to someone who was not properly trained, lacked cultural and  

>>>>>> social sensitivities, was not fully aware of what the label “LD”  

>>>>>> meant to the student now and in the future, and/or had certain  

>>>>>> biases toward segments of the population.  Parent have often  

>>>>>> complained that the school provided diagnostics were unfair,  

>>>>>> incomplete, and or inaccurate, and it has been just as often my  

>>>>>> unfortunate experience to find that the parents were right. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What are the options?  If the parents can afford it, there are  

>>>>>> outside testing facilities for students of all ages that can  

>>>>>> provide appropriate, complete, and accurate assessments of a  

>>>>>> student’s level and category of LD.  It is important to find out  

>>>>>> in advance, however, how reliable these institutions are, and  

>>>>>> whether they are fairly priced as viewed by the wider community.   

>>>>>> If the parents cannot pay much or perhaps at all, they are left  

>>>>>> to the mercies of outside agencies, both for-and non-profit.   

>>>>>> Here again the outcomes may be on the mark or less than  

>>>>>> desirable.  I have seen both good and poor results.  But testing  

>>>>>> is merely part of the equation, and only initiates years of work  

>>>>>> ahead.  Sometimes parents can proceed on their own successfully,  

>>>>>> and sometimes not; it depends on their work schedules, attitudes,  

>>>>>> other demands, personal problems and health, for example.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Hiring individual help may be a good idea, if, and I emphasize  

>>>>>> the “if,” a qualified educational consultant and advocate can be  

>>>>>> found.  Both of these characteristics must be present: the person  

>>>>>> you select should be an experienced and educated professional,  

>>>>>> one who has worked extensively in the school system, and knows  

>>>>>> how the system really works.  In addition to knowing and  

>>>>>> providing the precise method of approach to the schools to obtain  

>>>>>> the desired goal, the consultant must also have in their heart  

>>>>>> the ability to champion the rights of the student.  I say this  

>>>>>> out of my own experience over many years, as I witnessed both  

>>>>>> good and bad consultants and advocates hired by concerned, often  

>>>>>> desperate parents seeking help for their children.  The good ones  

>>>>>> worked wonders.  They were knowledgeable, articulate, analytical,  

>>>>>> and prepared.  The bad ones caused havoc and pain.  They were  

>>>>>> short-sighted, lacked enough education and preparation, and let  

>>>>>> the school system run rampant over the case. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What should you look for in a good educational consultant and  

>>>>>> advocate?  As I began above, both the ability to perceive the  

>>>>>> real problems in each case, and not just the ones provided by the  

>>>>>> school system and family, and the real solutions to each case,  

>>>>>> that is, what in realistic terms can be done within and without  

>>>>>> the system to help each child.  Each case is as varied as the  

>>>>>> colors of the rainbow, a good consultant knows, and each case  

>>>>>> requires full concentration, adequate education and preparation,  

>>>>>> professional manner, adequate time, and a firm, fixed agenda. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> In terms of fees, I have seen perfectly decent people working for  

>>>>>> as little as $50 an hour, and I have seen people who should never  

>>>>>> have been allowed near the case charging $400 an hour and more.   

>>>>>> There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the pricing, and often it  

>>>>>> is what the community will bear.  Here in the Washington, DC  

>>>>>> metro area most consultants and/or advocates charge from $100 to  

>>>>>> almost $1000 per session, with more for special services,  

>>>>>> depending on what they advertise they can do for you and your  

>>>>>> youngster.  Amazing but true.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What you want to look for is someone you like and trust, first,  

>>>>>> so that the time you and your child spend with them will be  

>>>>>> production.  You also want someone who is educated in the field  

>>>>>> and can prove it, and someone who will spend time with you as a  

>>>>>> parent, your child as a student, you and your child as a team,  

>>>>>> the student’s school, the school’s administration, the school  

>>>>>> system administration, the many meetings that are inevitable,  

>>>>>> available resources and alternatives, available treatments and  

>>>>>> options, and access to potentially necessary extended help.  It  

>>>>>> is also a good idea to know if the person works with any lawyers  

>>>>>> who specialized in education law, “just in case.”  While you may  

>>>>>> or may not need, ultimately, to seek counsel, it is always a good  

>>>>>> idea to have “on tap” a name or two of law firms that you have  

>>>>>> already checked out. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I would recommend that you explore all of this before deciding  

>>>>>> anything.  I would also suggest that you try to work out an  

>>>>>> agreement on an hourly basis, with a letter of contract that lets  

>>>>>> you out of the relationship if you find out that the person is  

>>>>>> not working out.  If they insist on a retainer larger than 5  

>>>>>> hours of their time on an hourly basis, or if they ask for all  

>>>>>> the money up front, or any other large money arrangement, after  

>>>>>> deciding whether their reasons were sound, I would perhaps look  

>>>>>> elsewhere.  There are many very good educational consultants and  

>>>>>> advocates who do have fair rates and who are more than happy to  

>>>>>> assist you. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I hope this information is of value to you, and that you will  

>>>>>> contact me with any questions you might have. 

>>>>>>

>>>>>> All best,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Dr. Judith Peyton Sinclair

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Contact information:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Judith Peyton Sinclair, PhD

>>>>>> Cognitive Psychologist and Educator

>>>>>> Life and Career Management Services Consultant

>>>>>> Telephone 202-364-3893

>>>>>> www.sinclairsystem.com

>>>>>> j-p-sinclair at worldnet.att.net

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------

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>>>>>> mlavallee at charter.net.-------------------------------------------- 

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>>>> andreawilder at comcast.net.------------------------------------------- 

>>>> ---------

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