Sorry but from my experience a teacher often makes the difference because that teacher takes the time to help the person determine what to try and how to apply various strategies.  Good teachers do that all the time. It's just more dramatic for the student with LD.  
I'm not sure where you get this teacher power thing.  I will continue to follow the research in hopes that someone somewhere finds something that we can do to help.  

>>> <robinschwarz1 at aol.com> 4/16/2007 7:35 PM >>>

Evelyn --your message seems to contradict itself.  You say that the 
successful learners with LD LEARN TO USE THE ACCOMMODATIONS THAT WORK 
FOR THEM   but at the beginning of the message you say "WE can 
sometimes correct or remediate"-- I have to take sharp exception to 
that language-- it is exactly the teacher-centered, holding the power 
and answers- language that perpetuates the old ways Arlene is referring 
to and I am too.

Nothing could be clearer than the fact that learning difficulties--and 
I hesitate always to call them learning disabilities since there is so 
little actual scientific evidence for LD and the legal term implies 
that there is indeed an actual neurologically -based,  diagnosable 
difference in the brain that is causing learning difficulties--do not 
go away as one gets older.  That is not in question.  What IS in 
question in these discussions is whether we can or need to find out 
EXACTLY what it is, whether we are mistaking other problems for 
apparent LD and what we can do to work with the learner to be empowered 
in learning and life and work.

In nearly all of the discussion about LD and learners this last week, 
the language reflected the position that somehow diagnosticians and 
teachers have the keys to learning if only we can find out who truly 
NEEDS the keys.    As you note yourself, it is only when the learner 
figures this out for him or herself that learning is truly successful 
and the learner is actually empowered.   It doesn't take a 
diagnostician to tell a learner that he or she has difficulty with some 
aspect of learning, and all the strategies in the toolbox will not help 
if that learner doesn't use them or they do not make sense or make a 
difference for him or her-- so when learners are given choices about 
learning, they will choose what helps them.  As I said in another 
posting,  we may need to give them some ideas, but they will use what 
they find meaningful, not what strategies we want them to use.

Robin Lovrien Schwarz

-----Original Message-----
From: EBrown at parkland.edu 
To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 
Sent: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 2:14 PM
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1079] Re: Fwd: Re: ASSISTANCE 
PLEASE--reading and vision issues

   The need for accommodations does not go away nor does a learning 
disability
become "cured."  By teaching differently we can sometimes correct or 
remediate
but this is always case by case.  What usually happens in my experience 
is
successful students with LD learn to independently use the 
accommodations that
work for them,  work twice as hard as everyone else in many areas, and 
find the
right vocational and lifestyle matches for the individual strengths.
Evelyn

>>> "Arlene Nelson" <anelson at oltn.odl.state.ok.us> 4/16/2007 10:19 AM 

>>>

In reading most of the emails that have been posted in the last few 
days, I
find that I agree with Robin.  I have been working in this field for 
the
last 20 years..and in programs from Montana to  California to Oklahoma. 
 I
have seen what the K12 policies and procedures have done across the 
board
and really folks..it doesn't look like it's working all that well 
because we
still have an overwhelming amount of students that are dropping out, 
failing
to be successful in their educational attempts, work situations and
sometimes even their life situations.  If the K through 12 model was 
working
so well, then why do we still have so many folks who need us????

Seems like what isn't working is our ability to see that we need to do 
some
things differently, not continue to roll out the same old same old...I
challenge all of you to really look at your students and how you serve 
them.
Are they able to be successful in their learning, their work, their 
life????
I think not.  Where  have they been before coming to you?  In school. K
through 12. What services have they received while in school.  The LD
diagnosis, the accommodations, the what evers...have these worked for 
these
students????  No. Not if they are needing your services.  If they had, 
then
they would not need us.  We need to look at new, alternative, and even 
maybe
"different" ways of addressing their problems and their. We need to be 
able
to give them the power to achieve on all levels, not continue down the 
same
road they have already traveled.  It didn't work folks....so what are 
we
going to do about it now?


----- Original Message -----
From: <robinschwarz1 at aol.com>
To: <learningdisabilities at nifl.gov>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:56 PM
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1038] Re: Fwd: Re: ASSISTANCE 
PLEASE--reading
and vision issues



> Yes,--this is exactly what programs find when they do just what you

> do--incorporate visual stress screening into the intake process--it is

> very simple to do and catches difficulties these adults virtually 

never

> knew they had.

>

> My philosophy about all this is that it behooves us educators to look

> at all possible causes of learning difficulty to help learners who 

have

> struggled.  I have no problem with less traditional ideas about what

> causes people to struggle. I have worked with such learners way too

> long to limit any intervention to the narrow parameters of LD.    

Robin

> Lovrien Schwarz

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rmvalenti at forsythtech.edu 

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Sent: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 9:52 AM

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1029] Fwd: Re: ASSISTANCE

> PLEASE--reading and vision issues

>

>   I agree with Robin and have found that many of our students who have

> been

> diagnosed with reading problems, actually have visual stress issues

> that are

> alleviated with colored overlays. We have incorporated visual stress

> screenings

> in our intake process and over 46% of our students find that reading

> with

> overlays stabilizes how they see the page.

>

> In cases where we did not screen before the placement test, we often

> saw a big

> discrepancy between the math and reading score (higher math than

> reading). We

> then screened for visual stress and in most of these cases we find 

that

> the

> student needs overlays and scored on average 3 grade levels higher

> witht the use

> of overlays.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>> <robinschwarz1 at aol.com> 04/06/07 2:35 PM >>>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: robinschwarz1 at aol.com 

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 2:15 PM

> Subject: Re: [LearningDisabilities 1023] Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> I have to jump into this discussion in response to Dr. Kelly's comment

> about vision. On the contrary, as Russell Smith and Arlene Nelson

> noted, certain vision issues which are not addressed in either a

> professional assessment for LD or by regular optometrists would

> definitely seem to be something to be checked in this case. Persons

> with the diverging or converging issues Arlene mentioned rarely

> recognize how much of an impact these problems have on reading 

fluency.

> The convergence/divergence or binocularity problems (where one must

> focus both eyes on a point and keep them focused, then move the eyes

> along a line of print) are typically not checked in an optemetric exam

> unless one requests it, oddly enough.

>

> Similarly, the visual stress problem, which colored overlays alleviate

> immediately, is something few sufferers know they have. No one asks

> them what they see when they look at a page. Nearly all people with

> visual stress will indicate that either things move or smudge, things

> flash, or they see white rivers, or they will indicate that they 

cannot

> read for long periods of time-( usually no more than 10-20 minutes

> maximum) without getting a headache or other physical symptoms. (For

> examples of what such a person sees, see the front page of the

> irlen.com website). Since these persons do not know they have such

> problems, they think they are simply not trying hard enough. When the

> overlays are used, they then are surprised that things do not actually

> move on the page or make their heads hurt.

>

> The reason these two vision issues should be checked BEFORE other

> diagnosis takes place is that the problems they are likely to cause

> with reading nearly always exactly mimic problems caused by dyslexia.

> Thus people who do not have dyslexia may be diagnosed with it when

> given the usual reading tests if their problems stem from visual 

issues

> of some kind. (In fact, I know of many such instances where this has

> happened.)

>

> One easy way to check whether the problem is vision or dyslexia is to

> have the reader read individual words on cards in large print and then

> read the same words in regular text. Readers who have either vision

> difficulty (divergence or convergence, tracking) or visual stress will

> be able to read individual words competently and will be able to

> demonstrate a knowledge and use of decoding skills, but will have

> highly dysfluent and inaccurate reading when reading text (without

> using a finger or other marker). This can be verified by having the

> reader then point to each word as she reads using a finger or a pencil

> and forcing her to read each word without trying to move ahead. Again,

> accuracy should be much higher than when reading lines of print 

without

> a marker.

>

> Readers with these problems typically leave off endings, guess at 

words

> using initial letters, mix up internal details of words, lose their

> place on a line, re-read often and drop lines (move to another line

> lower on the page). Thus such readers test at much lower grade or

> reading levels than they are actually capable of reading at because of

> accuracy --and then comprehension--issues.

>

> Dyslexic readers will make errors or read with effort no matter the

> size of print or whether words are in isolation or in text or whether

> they are using an overlay or not. Contrary to what many have come to

> think, overlays are not a "cure" for dyslexia.

>

> Since this woman is "an avid reader" but testing at 2nd grade, visual

> issues are highly likely the cause of the discrepancy. No one who

> actually READS at 2nd grade is "an avid reader"-- too much is

> unavailable to such a reader.

>

> I have done such screenings for years and years as a reading/LD

> specialist.

>

> Robin Lovrien Schwarz, M. Sp. Ed: LD

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: mskelly at aecom.yu.edu 

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 7:19 AM

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1023] Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> Dear Christine:  Nothing in your message indicates a particular vision

> problem.  In every case that LD is suspected, vision and hearing

> problems should be ruled out first.  If possible, it would be helpful

> to get a psychoeducational evaluation to determine the problem that

> underlies the reading difficulty.  Vision may be involved, but it is

> far more likely that language systems are involved.  As far as

> materials go, I would suggest checking out Recordings for the Blind 

and

> Dyslexic for books on tape.  Lexia Learning Systems has a good adult

> computer based program, although I suggest that the use of the program

> be augmented by an actual teacher who can teach the actual information

> and then use the computer for practice.  Best of luck, Mary Kelly

>

> Mary S. Kelly, PhD

> Director, Fisher Landau Center for the Treatment of LD

> Albert Einstein College of Medicine

> 1165 Morris Park Ave.

> Bronx, NY 10463

>

> At 05:57 PM 4/5/2007, you wrote:

> You might also check into her vision.  Has she been seen by a

> developmental optometrist at any point.  Converging and diverging

> issues as well as other visual problems can create many problems if 

not

> diagnosed.

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Smith, Russell

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:50 PM

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1020] Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> Has any one suggested colored overlays? Look up Irlen Syndrome

>

> Russell  L. Smith

> Education Supervisor I

> Special Education Compliance

> We have met the enemy and he is us Pogo (Walt Kelly)

> Education Supervisor I

> Special Education Compliance

> We have met the enemy and he is us Pogo (Walt Kelly)

>

>

>

>

> --------

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [

> mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Cimilluca,

> Christine

> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:07 AM

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 983] ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:07 AM

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 983] ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> I'm looking for assistance for a 23 year old mom with an LD.  She is 

an

> avid reader, but tests very low (2nd or 3rd grade) in reading and

> writing levels.  She would like to pursue her degree at a local

> college.

>

> Can anyone recommend workbooks, books, DVD's, etc. that she could use

> to prepare herself at home?  She's bright, motivated, works hard and 

is

> uncomfortable about re-entering school.

>

>     Christine

>

> Christine G. Cimilluca

> Educational and Training Coordinator

> Region IV Resource Center

> University of South Florida

> 4202 East Fowler Avenue PED214

> Tampa, Florida  33620

> Phone 813 974-2904

> FAX 813 974-2780

> www.coedu.usf.edu/regioniv/centerhome.htm 

>

> "I prefer the errors of enthusiasm to the indifference of wisdom."  --

> Anatole France

>

> --------

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> Ronnie Valenti

> Testing Coordinator

> Forsyth Technical Community College

> 2100 Silas Creek Parkway

> Winston Salem, NC 27103

> Phone 336-734-7759

> FAX 336-734-7752

> rmvalenti at forsythtech.edu 

>

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Evelyn Brown
Academic Development Specialist
Parkland College
2400 West Bradley
Champaign, IL 61821
217.351.2587
ebrown at parkland.edu 
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Evelyn Brown
Academic Development Specialist
Parkland College
2400 West Bradley
Champaign, IL 61821
217.351.2587 
ebrown at parkland.edu