Well said Glen. much better than I did.
Evelyn

>>> "Glenn Young" <gyoungxlt at comcast.net> 4/17/2007 11:50 AM >>>

For years ... And as expressed in the Bridges to Practice approach ... The
push has been to move the issues of LD away from an "education" model to
that of a "disability model" , for in fact that is what LD is ... A
disability under law and fits into the concept of the over ADA definition of
disability.  And, if we look at the Office of Disability Employment Policy
(ODEP) at the Department of Labor, rather than adult literacy
(USED/OVAE/DAEL) for approaches to address "disability" ... We see strong
arguments to support what Robin and others have been saying .. According to
ODEP the three keys for success for persons with disabilities in employment
and education settings are:

	Self Awareness  - understanding of having a disability (its impacts,
limitations, 	interventions needed, etc).

	Understanding of laws and protections under the laws and (and how to
best use 	these laws for defining and performing the "essential
elements of the task"), and
 
	Accessing assistive technology and other accommodations (to enable
the person with 	disabilities to fairly compete in an education and
work setting). 

		Office of Disability and Employment Policy (ODEP)
http://www.dol.gov/odep/ 

And as I have pointed out for years in my policy papers, trainings and other
efforts, in the adult literacy and employment settings:

	Most adults with Learning Disabilities are not self awareness  - do
not have an 	understanding that they have a disability, or if they do
they have been greatly 	misinformed concerning it in the special ed systems
for from "peers".

	Most adults with LD do not understand disability laws and
protections offered  	under these laws, (if they think in terms of laws
they thing IDEA which has no 	impact out of school,  and 

	Most adults with LD are not able to access assistive technology and
other 	accommodations (either for issues of money, or not provided by
services (since 	they don't look disabled) 

Therefore under the current efforts, (for the most part) persons with LD are
not succeeding because the are not being treated as persons with
disabilities and are not being provided with the three keys to success for
persons with disabilities as promoted by ODEP.

	(And how we inform them will differ greatly with each person --
since some with be 	out of the K-12 system with the LD term has been
used to beat them up something 	awful for years and some will be newly
identified and see this as an AHAAAAA 	moment ..., and other variations on
the theme ... So again dare I say it ... One 	size does not fit all)

I do very long trainings on this disconnect between Education and Disability
models  -- so it is had to put across the point in a simple e-mail reply ...
But until adult education (and other programs serving the needs of persons
with LD) really moves into a disability model and focuses on the three main
points for disability success, we will continue to see long-term failure of
the overall system (yes, there are some successful programs out there ...
But I am talking about overall systems success) 

Thanks 

Glenn Young
530 Auburn Ave.
Buffalo, New York 14222
Ph. and Fax 716-882-2842
Cell 703-864-3755
e-mail gyoungxlt at adelphia.net 

-----Original Message-----
From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
robinschwarz1 at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 6:35 PM
To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1087] Re: Fwd: Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE--reading
and vision issues

Evelyn --your message seems to contradict itself.  You say that the
successful learners with LD LEARN TO USE THE ACCOMMODATIONS THAT WORK 
FOR THEM   but at the beginning of the message you say "WE can 
sometimes correct or remediate"-- I have to take sharp exception to that
language-- it is exactly the teacher-centered, holding the power and
answers- language that perpetuates the old ways Arlene is referring to and I
am too.

Nothing could be clearer than the fact that learning difficulties--and I
hesitate always to call them learning disabilities since there is so little
actual scientific evidence for LD and the legal term implies that there is
indeed an actual neurologically -based,  diagnosable difference in the brain
that is causing learning difficulties--do not go away as one gets older.
That is not in question.  What IS in question in these discussions is
whether we can or need to find out EXACTLY what it is, whether we are
mistaking other problems for apparent LD and what we can do to work with the
learner to be empowered in learning and life and work.

In nearly all of the discussion about LD and learners this last week, the
language reflected the position that somehow diagnosticians and teachers
have the keys to learning if only we can find out who truly 
NEEDS the keys.    As you note yourself, it is only when the learner 
figures this out for him or herself that learning is truly successful 
and the learner is actually empowered.   It doesn't take a 
diagnostician to tell a learner that he or she has difficulty with some
aspect of learning, and all the strategies in the toolbox will not help if
that learner doesn't use them or they do not make sense or make a difference
for him or her-- so when learners are given choices about learning, they
will choose what helps them.  As I said in another posting,  we may need to
give them some ideas, but they will use what they find meaningful, not what
strategies we want them to use.

Robin Lovrien Schwarz

-----Original Message-----
From: EBrown at parkland.edu 
To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 
Sent: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 2:14 PM
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1079] Re: Fwd: Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE--reading
and vision issues

   The need for accommodations does not go away nor does a learning
disability become "cured."  By teaching differently we can sometimes correct
or remediate but this is always case by case.  What usually happens in my
experience is successful students with LD learn to independently use the
accommodations that work for them,  work twice as hard as everyone else in
many areas, and find the right vocational and lifestyle matches for the
individual strengths.
Evelyn

>>> "Arlene Nelson" <anelson at oltn.odl.state.ok.us> 4/16/2007 10:19 AM

>>>

In reading most of the emails that have been posted in the last few days, I
find that I agree with Robin.  I have been working in this field for the
last 20 years..and in programs from Montana to  California to Oklahoma. 
 I
have seen what the K12 policies and procedures have done across the board
and really folks..it doesn't look like it's working all that well because we
still have an overwhelming amount of students that are dropping out, failing
to be successful in their educational attempts, work situations and
sometimes even their life situations.  If the K through 12 model was working
so well, then why do we still have so many folks who need us????

Seems like what isn't working is our ability to see that we need to do some
things differently, not continue to roll out the same old same old...I
challenge all of you to really look at your students and how you serve them.
Are they able to be successful in their learning, their work, their life????
I think not.  Where  have they been before coming to you?  In school. K
through 12. What services have they received while in school.  The LD
diagnosis, the accommodations, the what evers...have these worked for these
students????  No. Not if they are needing your services.  If they had, then
they would not need us.  We need to look at new, alternative, and even maybe
"different" ways of addressing their problems and their. We need to be able
to give them the power to achieve on all levels, not continue down the same
road they have already traveled.  It didn't work folks....so what are we
going to do about it now?


----- Original Message -----
From: <robinschwarz1 at aol.com>
To: <learningdisabilities at nifl.gov>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:56 PM
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1038] Re: Fwd: Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE--reading
and vision issues



> Yes,--this is exactly what programs find when they do just what you

> do--incorporate visual stress screening into the intake process--it is

> very simple to do and catches difficulties these adults virtually 

never

> knew they had.

>

> My philosophy about all this is that it behooves us educators to look

> at all possible causes of learning difficulty to help learners who 

have

> struggled.  I have no problem with less traditional ideas about what

> causes people to struggle. I have worked with such learners way too

> long to limit any intervention to the narrow parameters of LD.    

Robin

> Lovrien Schwarz

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rmvalenti at forsythtech.edu 

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Sent: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 9:52 AM

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1029] Fwd: Re: ASSISTANCE

> PLEASE--reading and vision issues

>

>   I agree with Robin and have found that many of our students who have

> been

> diagnosed with reading problems, actually have visual stress issues

> that are

> alleviated with colored overlays. We have incorporated visual stress

> screenings

> in our intake process and over 46% of our students find that reading

> with

> overlays stabilizes how they see the page.

>

> In cases where we did not screen before the placement test, we often

> saw a big

> discrepancy between the math and reading score (higher math than

> reading). We

> then screened for visual stress and in most of these cases we find 

that

> the

> student needs overlays and scored on average 3 grade levels higher

> witht the use

> of overlays.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>> <robinschwarz1 at aol.com> 04/06/07 2:35 PM >>>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: robinschwarz1 at aol.com 

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 2:15 PM

> Subject: Re: [LearningDisabilities 1023] Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> I have to jump into this discussion in response to Dr. Kelly's comment

> about vision. On the contrary, as Russell Smith and Arlene Nelson

> noted, certain vision issues which are not addressed in either a

> professional assessment for LD or by regular optometrists would

> definitely seem to be something to be checked in this case. Persons

> with the diverging or converging issues Arlene mentioned rarely

> recognize how much of an impact these problems have on reading 

fluency.

> The convergence/divergence or binocularity problems (where one must

> focus both eyes on a point and keep them focused, then move the eyes

> along a line of print) are typically not checked in an optemetric exam

> unless one requests it, oddly enough.

>

> Similarly, the visual stress problem, which colored overlays alleviate

> immediately, is something few sufferers know they have. No one asks

> them what they see when they look at a page. Nearly all people with

> visual stress will indicate that either things move or smudge, things

> flash, or they see white rivers, or they will indicate that they 

cannot

> read for long periods of time-( usually no more than 10-20 minutes

> maximum) without getting a headache or other physical symptoms. (For

> examples of what such a person sees, see the front page of the

> irlen.com website). Since these persons do not know they have such

> problems, they think they are simply not trying hard enough. When the

> overlays are used, they then are surprised that things do not actually

> move on the page or make their heads hurt.

>

> The reason these two vision issues should be checked BEFORE other

> diagnosis takes place is that the problems they are likely to cause

> with reading nearly always exactly mimic problems caused by dyslexia.

> Thus people who do not have dyslexia may be diagnosed with it when

> given the usual reading tests if their problems stem from visual 

issues

> of some kind. (In fact, I know of many such instances where this has

> happened.)

>

> One easy way to check whether the problem is vision or dyslexia is to

> have the reader read individual words on cards in large print and then

> read the same words in regular text. Readers who have either vision

> difficulty (divergence or convergence, tracking) or visual stress will

> be able to read individual words competently and will be able to

> demonstrate a knowledge and use of decoding skills, but will have

> highly dysfluent and inaccurate reading when reading text (without

> using a finger or other marker). This can be verified by having the

> reader then point to each word as she reads using a finger or a pencil

> and forcing her to read each word without trying to move ahead. Again,

> accuracy should be much higher than when reading lines of print 

without

> a marker.

>

> Readers with these problems typically leave off endings, guess at 

words

> using initial letters, mix up internal details of words, lose their

> place on a line, re-read often and drop lines (move to another line

> lower on the page). Thus such readers test at much lower grade or

> reading levels than they are actually capable of reading at because of

> accuracy --and then comprehension--issues.

>

> Dyslexic readers will make errors or read with effort no matter the

> size of print or whether words are in isolation or in text or whether

> they are using an overlay or not. Contrary to what many have come to

> think, overlays are not a "cure" for dyslexia.

>

> Since this woman is "an avid reader" but testing at 2nd grade, visual

> issues are highly likely the cause of the discrepancy. No one who

> actually READS at 2nd grade is "an avid reader"-- too much is

> unavailable to such a reader.

>

> I have done such screenings for years and years as a reading/LD

> specialist.

>

> Robin Lovrien Schwarz, M. Sp. Ed: LD

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: mskelly at aecom.yu.edu 

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 7:19 AM

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1023] Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> Dear Christine:  Nothing in your message indicates a particular vision

> problem.  In every case that LD is suspected, vision and hearing

> problems should be ruled out first.  If possible, it would be helpful

> to get a psychoeducational evaluation to determine the problem that

> underlies the reading difficulty.  Vision may be involved, but it is

> far more likely that language systems are involved.  As far as

> materials go, I would suggest checking out Recordings for the Blind 

and

> Dyslexic for books on tape.  Lexia Learning Systems has a good adult

> computer based program, although I suggest that the use of the program

> be augmented by an actual teacher who can teach the actual information

> and then use the computer for practice.  Best of luck, Mary Kelly

>

> Mary S. Kelly, PhD

> Director, Fisher Landau Center for the Treatment of LD

> Albert Einstein College of Medicine

> 1165 Morris Park Ave.

> Bronx, NY 10463

>

> At 05:57 PM 4/5/2007, you wrote:

> You might also check into her vision.  Has she been seen by a

> developmental optometrist at any point.  Converging and diverging

> issues as well as other visual problems can create many problems if 

not

> diagnosed.

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Smith, Russell

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:50 PM

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1020] Re: ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> Has any one suggested colored overlays? Look up Irlen Syndrome

>

> Russell  L. Smith

> Education Supervisor I

> Special Education Compliance

> We have met the enemy and he is us Pogo (Walt Kelly)

> Education Supervisor I

> Special Education Compliance

> We have met the enemy and he is us Pogo (Walt Kelly)

>

>

>

>

> --------

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [

> mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Cimilluca,

> Christine

> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:07 AM

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 983] ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:07 AM

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 983] ASSISTANCE PLEASE

>

> I'm looking for assistance for a 23 year old mom with an LD.  She is 

an

> avid reader, but tests very low (2nd or 3rd grade) in reading and

> writing levels.  She would like to pursue her degree at a local

> college.

>

> Can anyone recommend workbooks, books, DVD's, etc. that she could use

> to prepare herself at home?  She's bright, motivated, works hard and 

is

> uncomfortable about re-entering school.

>

>     Christine

>

> Christine G. Cimilluca

> Educational and Training Coordinator

> Region IV Resource Center

> University of South Florida

> 4202 East Fowler Avenue PED214

> Tampa, Florida  33620

> Phone 813 974-2904

> FAX 813 974-2780

> www.coedu.usf.edu/regioniv/centerhome.htm 

>

> "I prefer the errors of enthusiasm to the indifference of wisdom."  --

> Anatole France

>

> --------

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> Ronnie Valenti

> Testing Coordinator

> Forsyth Technical Community College

> 2100 Silas Creek Parkway

> Winston Salem, NC 27103

> Phone 336-734-7759

> FAX 336-734-7752

> rmvalenti at forsythtech.edu 

>

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Evelyn Brown
Academic Development Specialist
Parkland College
2400 West Bradley
Champaign, IL 61821
217.351.2587
ebrown at parkland.edu 
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Evelyn Brown
Academic Development Specialist
Parkland College
2400 West Bradley
Champaign, IL 61821
217.351.2587 
ebrown at parkland.edu