Robin, what is the old saying? ... No man is an Island ... ok no one with LD
is not impacted by a great many other things ,,, and I agree with you
(greatly) that full evaluations of all potential barriers to learning need
to be considered and addressed (hearing, vision, domestic violence, use of
drugs, impact of the use of drugs, homelessness (I can go on for a very long
time ...) but all of this need for evaluation and addressing other factors
does not undermine the idea that many of the people with this list of
issues, and so many other issues, may also have LD .... So the answer is of
course to try and address all potential issues, and not stop because you
found one issue (whether its dyslexia or hunger) And of course someone who
is very hungry will not likely focus on an Orton Gillingham lesson ...etc.
 
However, even if all what you say about other impacts are true and the need
to address these impacts are true ... it does not support you statement that
it is unlikely that 50-80% of adults in adult education programs have LD ...
There is no correlation between your two statements  ... people can have
unaddressed vision problems and LD as well ... etc Its not likely one or the
other, but both ... 
 
And, considering the limited pool of people who are eligible in this country
for adult Ed ...(which is not much like the profile of the general pool of
the population)  and what the education (and health, and poverty, etc)
backgrounds of these people are (when compared to the general population),
and how they greatly fit the profile of those who are most likely to have a
neurological impairment that we call LD ... the opposite of your statement
is true ... it is far more likely that persons in adult ED, (even the ESL
persons in adult ed) are, due to profiles of the people, more likely then
those who are not in adult Ed (the general population)  to have LD ...
 
You also present another statement that is also not true ... you say that LD
is a legal term ...  It is not so ... it is a term to refer to
neurologically based disorders that manifest itself in certain way  ... As
stated in DSM IV and elsewhere ... The fact that the term is described, and
defied in law, and is therefore required to be addressed in the law(s), does
not make it a "legal term" per say.  That's like saying that since the law
defines what is racism, or driving drunk, or what is murder, that racism,
driving drunk or murder are only legal terms ... no, like LD, the issue or
the act is defined in law, so actions concerning them can be taken
(anti-discrimination laws, drunk driving arrests, and capital punishment to
name a few) ... and with LD ,,, special education requirements or
accommodations in other areas ... etc.  To be protected in law you need to
be defined in law ... so yes its a legal term, but it not a creation of the
law, its the law responding to the issue.
 
And LD is not just some manipulation of the legal concepts ... it is real,
and with the use of technology (MRI, etc) we can see far better how the
brain actually is "not functioning" ... and is impaired ...etc. 
 
So ... I am not denying that there are many issues that may impact reading,
that are not LD or dyslexia, but you can not state, based on real data and
real technology, that it is unlikely that most of the persons in ABE don't
have LD ... 
 
But what we can more likely say ..., and I support you in saying, is that we
must keep in mind the old term --- Co morbidity ... many things going on at
the same time ...and success of the adult learner is based on addressing as
many of the co morbid issues as we can. 
 
So ... please (as I started with a cliché, I'll end with one too ... Robin
... don't throw the baby out with the bath water ....)  Your point on
addressing other needs is great, but your claim on LD is not really
supported (even with Laura's limited data).  
 
As I've stated for years ... what we really need is solid random selection
studies which use relevant diagnostic procedures ... to finally get some
real reliable facts one way or the other ...
 
So ... how can we get that done?

Glenn Young 
530 Auburn Ave. 
Buffalo, New York 14222 
Ph. and Fax 716-882-2842 
Cell 703-864-3755 
e-mail gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com 

 

  _____  

From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
robinschwarz1 at aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:51 AM
To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1548] Re: IQ and LD


Kim -- it is definitely true that adult educators need to know a lot more
about learning challenges in adults-- and one thing to know more about,
which this discussion is helping with a lot, is the "true" nature of LD.   I
think it is important to remember that the term 'LD" is a legal one,
conferred only after the tortuous diagnostic process and used only when the
diagnostics can meet the laws and definitions that have been cited in the
discussion. Thus it is unlikely that 50-80% of adults in adult education
have LEARNING DISABILITIES. 

What they DO have is learning difficulties--the causes of which are
extremely varied.  I have been an LD specialist and reading tutor for 40
years, and I can tell you that the vast majority of reading problems are NOT
caused by dyslexia but by other problems, most commonly visual problems.  As
I have often described on this list, visual problems can cause reading
errors and low scores just as dyslexia does, but are frequently overlooked
in diagnosis and evaluations.  

Laura Weisel, who owns PowerPath, has data showing that 85-90% of over 5,000
adults screened in a variety of adult education/literacy setting had visual
stress problems--the kind that are readily helped with colored overlays.
Not a few of these adults had already been diagnosed with dyslexia or LD ,
but of course no amount of phonics or remedial reading or other tutoring or
help will address the real problem.  I have seen this first hand for years.
When I work with any adult learner who has reported reading difficulties,
the very first thing I do is screen for visual issues.  The visual stress
problems ( which are sensitivity to certain light and especially to black
print on white pages) can contribute to tracking and convergence
difficulties, making reading a torture because the eyes will not stay on a
line of print.    

Visual problems, particularly visual stress, contribute notably to attention
difficulties.  Brain images from a clinic in California show a highly
overactive brain when it is irritated by visual stress, but a much calmer
one when overlays are used.  Users of overlays will tell you they feel much
less tension, have no headaches and feel much better when things do not
blur, smudge, move etc on the page. 

Apparently the NEA agrees.  The NEA adopted a resolution in the last few
months recommending that every school child be screened for visual stress
--it takes just a few minutes.  Laura, and I, and all of her trainees.
strongly recommend that as part of the intake process, all adults be
screened for it too. 

Other vision problems, unrecognized hearing loss and a variety of other
causes also contribute to adult learning challenges-- not the least of which
is the self-fulfilling prophecy of failing.   

While the discussion of LD is extremely helpful on many levels, it is also
helpful to remember that we as educators must be alert to the wide range of
problems adult learners bring to the adult education setting. The kind of
practical, real-life suggestions about helping learners who have
socialization issues, self-help challenges etc. are what are really going to
improve life for learners--and we don't need labels or diagnosis to know
that these needs are there. As you have said, we can see that some learners
have significant  challenges.   What we need to do is explore a wide variety
of causes for those challenges as we help the learner figure out what works
best for him or her.  Only the learner inhabits his or her body and can tell
us whether an intervention or accommodation helps.   So for example, the
adult who is fidgety or acting out or talking out might be even more
uncomfortable in front of the class.   Maybe that person is attempting t o
hide or mask issues that cause embarrassment, or is reacting to the
fluorescent lights (one of my daughters, who has severe ADD, will tell you
she can hear the lights and sees them flicker) and really would do better
off at the side or back of the class, with a koosh ball or other object to
fidget with (that same daughter says she cannot listen if her hands are not
busy).  

A while back there was a wonderful description of a classroom in a school in
the San Francisco area where learners are able to choose where in the room
to sit (with different light sources) whether they want to wear a hat or not
( to block glare); use overlays, use a koosh ball, etc.  This is the kind of
ideal setting for adult learners I believe there should be more of.   

Robin Lovrien Schwarz, M. Sp. Ed:LD
Independent Consultant in Adult ESOL/Education and Learning Difficulties. 

 




-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Bellerive <KBellerive at greaterhomewood.org>
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
<learningdisabilities at nifl.gov>
Sent: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:03 am
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1509] Re: IQ and LD


"For example, most teachers should know that if a child (or adult!) is


acting out, distracted, or incapable of following directions, that child


or adult should sit in front of the class or near the teacher.


Instructions may have to be repeated and/or explained separately."





I learned some of these things in the class I took and others through


experience. Since there is no certification requirements for adult ed in


Maryland, adult educators need to be shown what to look out for and how


to help learners who exhibit certain behaviors that might lead to


learning disabilities. Without my elementary ed background and scant 3


credit hours and 4 years teaching experience in grades 1-4, I would not


have known what to look for or what to do when I saw the signs. Adult


educators don't have that kind of training unless they have a background


in it or professional development for it. Reportedly 50-80% of adult


learners have some form of learning disabilities so I'd say it's pretty


important that EVERYONE knows what to look for and how to work with


learners with LDs.








Kim Bellerive


Assistant Director 


Adult Literacy and ESOL Program


Greater Homewood Community Corporation


3501 N. Charles Street


Baltimore, MD 21218 


Phone 410-261-3518


Fax 410-261-3506





STRENGTHENING NEIGHBORHOODS IN NORTH CENTRAL BALTIMORE


www.greaterhomewood.org














-----Original Message-----


From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov


[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
<mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov?> ] On Behalf Of Katherine G


Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:27 AM


To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List


Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1508] Re: IQ and LD








 "I got approximately 3 credit hours of special education training which


is


required for regular education teachers."





Clearly, that is not enough!  Classroom teachers should be able to


identify


candidates for child study/services and be able to make accommodations


before it takes place. For example, most teachers should know that if a


child (or adult!) is acting out, distracted, or incapable of following


directions, that child or adult should sit in front of the class or near


the


teacher.  Instructions may have to be repeated and/or explained


separately.


I know this sounds basic, but I have had the experience of teachers NOT


knowing this.





In college, I had the fortune of tutoring in writing many LD adults, so


I


started recognizing some patterns.  For example, the severely dyslexic


students had more than just difficulty spelling.  They often could not


put


sentences together.  They misused words.





Certainly, though, these manifestations could also be seen in ESOL


students.


Obviously, it was easier to identify a native speaker with some kind of


learning challenge.  What I discovered, though, is I ended up providing


similar tutorial services to and using similar styles with both LD and


ESL


students.  At one point, I had become "the person" admin would send ESL


students to.  I really believe these references evolved because I had


worked


with so many LD students (not because I was some teaching genius LOL).





Unfortunately, when I later worked in higher education administration, I


would become frustrated with faculty who didn't understand when I told


them


they needed to provide "accommodations" and/or extra help to both LD and


ESL


students.  I assumed they had training and experience in these areas,


but


they did not.  My (ridiculous) middle management position didn't allow


me to


provide much guidance, and the school (a career school) was not in favor


of


spending extra dollars on student services or teacher training in this


area.


The results were of course, high failure and drop-out rates.  We see the


same thing in any educational setting.





Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt


Prince William County Public Schools


Adult Education


P.O. Box 389


Manassas, VA 20108


work 703-791-8387


fax 703-791-8889





-----Original Message-----


From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov


[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov]On
<mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov%5DOn?>  Behalf Of Kim
Bellerive


Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 9:50 AM


To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List


Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1507] Re: IQ and LD








"I think parents and educators sometimes know there is


something wrong with their children and/or students, but they can't tell


you


WHAT is wrong."





This is the crux of the problem for me. I am trained as an elementary


school teacher which means I got approximately 3 credit hours of special


education training which is required for regular education teachers in


CT where I was certified. I seriously doubt this qualifies me to


diagnose the adult learners I interact with every day as a reading


teacher. I know something is wrong but I don't know what it is. I know


something about providing instructional accommodations but I'm doing


that to the best of my ability with a limited knowledge base. The other


difficulty I've found, at least in Maryland, is that there is a shortage


of services for adults with learning disabilities as the main focus


appears to be on children. I'm curious to learn how others face this


challenge and overcome it.





Kim Bellerive


Assistant Director


Adult Literacy and ESOL Program


Greater Homewood Community Corporation


3501 N. Charles Street


Baltimore, MD 21218


Phone 410-261-3518


Fax 410-261-3506





STRENGTHENING NEIGHBORHOODS IN NORTH CENTRAL BALTIMORE


www.greaterhomewood.org











-----Original Message-----


From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov


[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
<mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov?> ] On Behalf Of Katherine G


Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:54 PM


To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List


Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1502] Re: IQ and LD





Hi Arlyn--





Let me clarify, because I think we are talking about two different


things.


When my daughters got the psychological evaluations, I was told that


kids


with LD often had average or above average intelligence.  That's not in


the


VA description, however (which I just looked up out of curiosity).  So


there


may be some confusion on my part between the psych descriptions and the


academic descriptions.  I think this is probably common since many


parents


must get their children evaluated outside of school (via a psychiatrist)


before the school will test them for learning disabilities.  At least,


this


has been my experience in this state.





Let me also say I'm not an expert in this field. I'm a parent who also


works


in education, and I am hoping to learn more via these lists (which have


been


exceedingly helpful).  I think parents and educators sometimes know


there is


something wrong with their children and/or students, but they can't tell


you


WHAT is wrong.  That's where the diagnosing and early intervention


become so


important--so we are not allowing children to graduate without knowing


they


have a learning disability that might affect them in the future even if


it


didn't in the past.





Does any of that make sense?  : )





Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

















-----Original Message-----


From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov


[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov]On
<mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov%5DOn?>  Behalf Of Arlyn
Roffman


Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:15 PM


To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List


Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1496] IQ and LD








Hi Katherine-





IDEA 2004 describes LD as ... a disorder in one or more of the basic


psychological processes involved in understanding or in using language,


spoken or written, which may manifest itself in an imperfect ability to


listen, think, speak, read, write, spell or do mathematical


calculations.





The National Joint Committee on Learning Disabilities definition is ....


LD is a general term that refers to a heterogeneous group of disorders


manifested by significant difficulties in the acquisition and use of


listening, speaking, reading, writing, reasoning, or mathematical


abilities.


These disorders are intrinsic to the individual, presumed to be due to


central nervous system dysfunction, and may occur across the life span.


Problems in self-regulatory behaviors, social perception, and social


interaction may exist with learning disabilities but do not, by


themselves,


constitute a learning disability.Although learning disabilities may


occur


concomitantly with other disabilities (e.g., sensory impairment, mental


retardation, serious emotional disturbance), or with extrinsic


influences


(such as cultural differences, insufficient or inappropriate


instruction),


they are not the result of those conditions or influences.











What does the state of Virginia say?


Arlyn








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To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to


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Email delivered to kbellerive at greaterhomewood.org


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Learning Disabilities mailing list


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To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to


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Email delivered to kgotthardt at comcast.net





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Learning Disabilities mailing list


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To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to


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Email delivered to kbellerive at greaterhomewood.org


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Email delivered to robinschwarz1 at aol.com


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