As a K-12 special educator, I agree with Glenn 100%.  When I facilitate transition plans for high school students I insist that the students participate.  Unfortunately, many of them are afraid to conduct their own meetings, wanting the adults to do everything.  (Probably because others have been orchestrating their lives for so long they believe they "can't" or will "do it wrong".)  I have had some luck with futures planning, especially if I work with the students before I bring in the other participants.  What are your experiences with futures planning with students with learning disabilities? 
 
Jeanette Schandelmeier
Lake Pend Oreille School District
Ponderay, ID
________________________________

From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Glenn Young
Sent: Sat 11/10/2007 5:36 PM
To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1544] Re: FYI on accommodations



I have followed the discussions with Arlyn and wish to add a few points of
clarification ...

1) The term average to above average intelligence was only put in the
definition (and the law) to help explain that the issues of being LD was not
manifestation of a general low intelligence (or as we say in this country
MR) ... What is defined as average or above average intelligence goes as low
as 70 IQ (not starting at 90 or 100 or so)- which (70+ IQ or so) actually
accounts for some 98% of the population  --- So we should not be making a
big deal over this average and above average --- it just means, or was
intended to mean, that people who are showing signs of LD are not showing
the signs of LD because they are (to used the ugly term) "retarded".  They
have "specific" limitations, not a general limitation.

2) Most people who are LD are not do well in college. Although they are
doing better then in the recent past ... The National Data in the 90's
showed that almost 90% of those with LD who entered college did not complete
in the first 5 years. While bad, it's not as bad as it sounds at first
glance because 75% of the general population who enter college do not
graduate in the first five years either. (While certain colleges, like
Lesley, Beacon etc, may have much better results, this is the composite
national data figures)

Based on more recent stats, it seems that the rate now is about 85% for LD
(college drop outs) --- so not quite yet to the general population but
getting closer.

3) You can not compare the success rate of those with LD in high school to
those in college and have any meaningful data.  Those in high school are
compelled to be there by law, and those in college are there by choice.  In
addition, there is no qualification for high school other then residency, as
opposed to having to qualify for college. Plus the services provided for LD
in high school are greatly different then in college. (And those in college
tend to be from far wealthier households on average then those who do not go
to college)  

A more meaningful statistic is the rate of those with LD in high school who
transition to college compared to the rate of those without LD who
transition to college, and here ... We are very far behind and there is a
significant statistical difference ... The LD rate, at least about 7 years
ago, seems to be about 4% of those with LD in High school, graduate high
school and then go on to a four year college, as compared to 40% of the
general high school population that graduates and then goes on to a 4 year
college (sixty percent go on either a two or four year college, but I am not
sure of the data for LD going to two year colleges.

So the bottom line is that 95% or so of kids with LD, in the K-12 system
either, do not graduate (drop out), age out, get some kind of "special
diploma" or in fact do get a regular high school degree, and when they do
exit school, in one way or another, do not go on to college.

Yet, I would guess that close to 95% of the information on transition for
kids with LD is about how to get ready for college and what to do in college
... This truism seems to be a great disconnect from reality.  Yes, we all
want to see our kids go to college, but wishing don't make it so ... We need
to have far greater resources for those with LD who are not going to college
and prepare them for the world outside of school ...

If someone has newer data on LD going to college, I'd like to know.

And based on this understanding that most kids with LD do not go to college
(and in fact most kids with LD are not identified in school as having LD,
lastly I have one more point to make ...

4) Transition means transition --- to somewhere .... And where ever it is -
it's not high school ... None of the concepts of IEP's or any other aspect
of special education, no lessening of standards, no "make it easier, etc)
are any longer valid - wherever they are going ... The only thing out there
for persons with LD is .... (with the rare exceptions of those so disabled
that they actually qualify for SSI, or those few who actually get support
from Voc Rehabilitation, ... Is the protections against discrimination based
on disability under the ADA or Section 504 ... And mostly, the sole benefit
within these laws that is the right to accommodations.

Therefore ... Regardless of if you think that making the person with LD try
harder (as if we don't try hard already, if not harder then others) is the
right answer, or only giving the accommodations in high school as a last
effort (which sound very cruel to me) ---  when it comes to transition, when
it comes to being outside of the K-12 system ... That's it ...
Accommodations is it ...

And unless the person with LD can be trained to both understand that basic
fact, and are trained to ask for the accommodation when needed, and trained
to understand that it is their right under the law, to have these
accommodations .... We can simply forget the whole idea of transition for
everyone with LD, but especially the 95% of those with LD not headed to
college .... (And sending the message that accommodations is something that
should be used only after all else had failed ... Is not preparing the
person with the right message)

We got one big card in our favor, outside of high school, ... Lets use it
... Or else ,,, all of us with LD are just some other people who seem odd
and are not qualified for most jobs ... (because without the use of
accommodations, we won't be able to do many jobs we could do with
accommodation ... This statement is one based in the basic understanding of
what is a disability)

SO .... Again ... To me the statements on this list, in this discussion on
transition, and other LD points ...  too often seem to be like the old
cliché of a "group of blind people describing an elephant" --- everyone
seems to be "looking" at this issue from only what is right in front of
their nose, and only from their immediate perspective (as a teacher in K-12,
or someone involved in college, or a parent,) and think they have the whole
picture, so natural it seems like the disability is so different to everyone
...from that narrow perspective it is.

So I please ask everyone to step back and look at the whole issue of LD and
understand the issue from the point of view of the person with LD as they
face it being a kid, a teen, and an adult, with all the complexities of each
of these life stages and not just a student or a worker, etc), while also
being impacted by the neurological impairment we call LD. Trying to have a
broader view may help the user of this list to have better understanding of
the issues at hand.

Thanks

Glenn Young
530 Auburn Ave.
Buffalo, New York 14222
Ph. and Fax 716-882-2842
Cell 703-864-3755
e-mail gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com

-----Original Message-----
From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Arlyn Roffman
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 5:07 PM
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1543] FYI on accommodations

Just a heads-up to any of you folks who might be interested. On November
13th from 12-1 EST, the National Center for LD is hosting an online
discussion (LD TALK) entitled, "Accommodations: More than Just Extended
Time". Seems relevant for many of you. Check it out at ncld.org.
Arlyn Roffman

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