Glen, I didn't find your answer abstract at all!

In terms of being informed consumers, here are my gut reactions based on experience and some minimal research:  too many accredited postsecondary schools do not provide the kind of student services they promise.  In one case, a school hired someone to help in this area, but as soon as the accreditation process was over, they fired him.  They were fond of dismissing people to save money, as a rule, and this was no exception.

Second, too many postsecondary schools enroll students with disabilities that they know they cannot accommodate at all.  Sure, these places write they don't discriminate based on disability, but when they don't help students with disabilities, they ARE discriminating, never mind breaking the law.

Third, too many postsecondary students don't receive the kind of education you are referring to.  They enter the school believing whatever they are told.  They get in there and do indeed feel stuck because the system makes them feel stupid...which as you point out, makes them feel like they can't go anywhere else and should try to tough it out.  When they flunk out, run out of money, or just drop, they feel even more stuck, more stupid, and more helpless.  It's like the conversation I was having with my underprivileged students who lived in horrible neighborhoods and living conditions:  "You need to get out of that environment," I told them.  

"How can we get out of that environment?"  "I'm the one supporting my mother and father."  "I don't know anything else."  "I'm too scared."  "I know I can't make it out there." 

Anyone with LD needs consistency.  Staying on familiar turf is better than struggling with transitions that they can't process.  You're right--it makes us prefer "staying with the devil."

Just as a point of reference, I have ADHD and struggle with anxiety.  My younger daughter has a speech delay and LD.  My older daughter has ADHD and depression.  We do lots of counseling sessions all together.  We manage but yes, life is more difficult for all of us.  But I am proud of what we have all accomplished!  Personally, I will do whatever I can to protect that progress so it can continue.  

I hope other students with LD and their families have protection.  Unfortunately, that will not happen until the diagnosis happens, and for too many of us, myself included, that comes way too late in life.


Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
www.luxuriouschoices.net 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Glenn Young 
  To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List' 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:22 AM
  Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1660] Re: Response to Jon's question last week


  Katharine 

   

  The obvious solution to your statement is that persons with LD should be informed consumers and not go to the schools that do not have the services .

   

  And as H L Menkin said . for every problem this is a quick and easy solution . that is completely wrong .

   

  So . my easy solution may be wrong . but it has a grain of truth in it (more like a ton) . All persons need to be informed consumers . and go to places that will fit them best .  

   

  So . as a general principle . when I do give advice to students with LD going to college . my advice to them is to make the first stop disabled student services . and find out about the program  and the services . and seek out feed back from existing student with LD to see if the services are real . etc .. and if its not good for persons with LD . don't go there . find a place that is good.

   

  We have come a very long way in a very short time . and while many can argue that the disabled student services programs in their given college or university are poor . well that may be true . but they are there . and there are also many colleges and universities with excellent programs .. And therefore, unlike a few decades agon, we have choices . 

   

  And we need to exercise our role as consumers . and make the choices the fix our needs best . as informed consumers 

   

  So that mean we really need to let students with LD know they have choices . and to help them explore the choices and reach right choices for them .

   

  OK . sounds simple again . but after years of personal therapy . the thing that I say I leaned finally is that in all cases we do have in fact a number of options . and even in most cases we have some good options . what we have to learn to do is to look for the options and figure out the good options . and not just accept our "fate" as presented to us by others .

   

  I feel that is one of the most pressing problems facing most persons with LD . is they have been "beaten" up so badly by the systems and all those around . they have no idea of what their options are, and even that in fact the do have options . and are usually willing to accept what is told to them is all that is available .. 

   

  If we can break this chain . this feeling of no options . and instead provide persons with LD with an understanding that there are options . and often good options . then progress can be made (and with this I don't mean lower your expectations . on the contrary . I mean figure out ways to get what you need to meet your expectations)

   

  I am often so confused by people who are in "dead" towns . who say they can not find work in these towns . and I say . well move to another town . and they say . oh no . I can't do that .. 

   

  Why? I ask . well . I know this place, been here all my life  . I don't want to go somewhere I don't know (or the other answer is I have family here) 

   

  Well . I ask . you rather stay where you know it's not good . then take a chance on finding something better?  And I also say . go get a good job and then bring your family there .

   

  But in fact most people rather "stay with the devil they know" .. And we need to work with the people with LD to be willing to go to a new place . to try other options . and not stay with the devil they know simple because that is what they know, they been treated this way all their lives . we need to teach people there are options and good options and that changing to a better option is not bad . it's a good thing .

   

  OK . this message may be a bit to abstract to get my point across . but I tried 

   

  Glenn Young

  CSLD

  530 Auburn Ave

  Buffalo NY 14222

  Cell 703-864-3755

  Fax 716-822-2842

  website: glennyoungcsld.com


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  From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Katherine
  Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:01 PM
  To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
  Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1659] Re: Response to Jon's question last week

   

  "Where you stand depends on where you sit."

   

  I like that.

   

  From where I sit, I've worked with too many students who have failed because their LD was either not diagnosed or they were not given necessary accommodations....in postsecondary institutions.

   

  I am glad adult education is working to take care of this at another level.  My primary concern is that those efforts aren't always transferring into the colleges.  Community colleges and even state colleges don't seem to have as much of an issue because there are usually specific departments that help these students transition.  But in smaller, private schools, it seems these students fall through the cracks and never even know they "fell" until it's too late.  

   

   

  Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt
  www.luxuriouschoices.net 

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Glenn Young 

    To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List' 

    Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:40 PM

    Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1658] Re: Response to Jon's question last week

     

    Katherine 

    There is an old saying . where you stand where you sdepends upon it .. So your struggle and focus . is based on your personal experience .

     

    So .. Keep on fighting . and we can support each others fights .

     

    But we must always keep the broad picture of fighting for the broad LD issues .

     

     

    Glenn Young

    CSLD

    530 Auburn Ave

    Buffalo NY 14222

    Cell 703-864-3755

    Fax 716-822-2842

    website: glennyoungcsld.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Nancie Payne
    Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:30 AM
    To: Learningdisabilities at nifl.gov
    Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1656] Response to Jon's question last week

     

    In response to Rochelle's request for a response to Jon's question:

    First, I am not an attorney and do not explicitly follow the ADA/Civil Rights cases, thus I can not comment on any rulings or stipulations.  That said -- here are some thoughts about the LD policy set by the literacy agency and the college that Jon references. 

    I am going to start at the end instead of the beginning.  First, it is my belief that the major reason a teacher (in the adult basic education world) would need new or updated learning disability information about a student is for purposes of receiving necessary accommodations on the GED Test, in admissions testing and/or when involved in coursework in a postsecondary institution, or on a job/work training situation.

    Now that you have my bias/opinion, here's the next element. While a learning disability is a permanent disability, there are several "glitches" if you will.

    Many times, especially with the current elements of the IDEA, K-12 students are not actually diagnosed with a learning disability - only identified as "qualifying for special education services."  Then, there are the issues around documentation done by a qualified professional.  There are no constants in the documentation of a learning disability - while many professionals follow a specific set of criteria, research shows that in practice, there are many ways of documenting this disability - some more acceptable than others.  These documentation elements lead to individuals having documentation that is inaccurate or frequently does not provide enough information to support the diagnosis. Finally, if the only documentation available was done sometime during elementary, middle, or early high school and the individual is now an adult, chances are their cognitive abilities have changed (especially if they have encountered good teachers and used strategies) and while the learning disability might still be present, the levels are different and an "adult assessment" may be important to have.

    All that said, the question is whether an adult education teacher providing instruction to an individual who has/appears to have a learning disability is assisted - instructionally speaking - by documentation/diagnostic information.  In my estimation - many times not, as the documentation/diagnosis typically does not suggest what should be done; that is the types of modification or adjustments appropriate in an adult education/literacy setting. Remember, that is not to say that the documentation/diagnosis is not important if accommodations for the GED test, postsecondary or work appear to be in order. In these cases, programs that provide adult basic education (in this case literacy and pre-GED classes) certainly have a need - as advocates for the student - and hopefully believe - a responsibility - to help the student access updated or new information.  If we don't do it who will?  If it doesn't happen during the time the student is enrolled in the adult education program, does the lack of such create a significant barrier in passage to the next level of self-sufficiency?  In my opinion, these requests should be based again on the student's goals/direction and the requirements/standards set by the entity/organization (e.g., GED Testing Service, the postsecondary institution, or the workplace).  

    On to the next element -- It is my understanding that organizations/programs that receive federal, state or local municipality funds and are providing services to individuals who lack the resources/support to access new or updated documentation of a disability have some obligation to assist the individual.  The question is - to what level of assistance is the obligation of the organization/program?  At the very least, having information available regarding resources within the community - for example: Vocational Rehabilitation may provide assistance if the student's primary goal is to become employed, literacy/GED is a step in that goal and a disability or the perception that there is a disability is preventing the student from achieving the goal or if the student is a welfare-to-work/TANF participant then there should be resources for disability documentation/diagnosis from that program.  These are just two instances of assistance within the system.  Each state, region and local area has a variety of options.  

    Well, the subject continually evolves - perhaps others in the legal field have more substantive information from the ADA perspective.

    Nancie Payne

     

     


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