Glenn, I always tell my students that if you have a concern or
complaint, you must offer a viable solution.  You seem to have us
hanging with a plausible solution.  What do you have in mind?
 
Geri Hayden 

Geraldine M. Hayden 
SPED/504 Coordinator 
Department of Correctional Education 
Fluvanna Correctional Center for Women 


________________________________

From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn Young
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:25 PM
To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'
Subject: [Possible SPAM] [LearningDisabilities 1805] Re: Controversial
again



Well at least I started some interesting discussion

 

And I must add that when we talk "on average" ... what one must do ...
dear I say it ... is not compare their local or even state programs per
say ... but to look at  the national aggravate data ....  We really can
not tell without a great deal of work... where our state or local
program fits along the "bell curve" of all ABE students or all ABE
programs ... So, while people respond to the data I present ... based on
their own programs or states it becomes a bit more problematic in how to
have the discussion if they stand only on their local data ... and want
to have a dispute over a percentage or two ... we need to look at the
issues I am raising in a bit more of global perspective. 

 

And the key point that has been raised so far ... that we can or can not
measure success based on if students meet their goals ... well that is
the crux of my point ... If we don't meet the goals of the students ...
what is our purpose?  

 

My point on this is that it does not really matter if we think the goals
are unrealistic or not ... it is their goals and they have a reason for
having these goals ... and a reason often imposed upon them by other
factors than the ABE system, or wishful thinking  ... such as welfare
clients being told they have 6 months to get a GED or they can't stay on
welfare ... unrealistic or not ... the pressures upon them are real and
therefore their goals are real to them ... Also, if a person wants to
get into an internship with a labor union or a training program in the
food industry etc ... and they may require a GED ... the student's goal
of getting the GED is an economic necessity, a great needed item ...
often the key to economic success for that student ... and not something
they can wait 3-5 years to obtain.

 

So with these pressure, which are very real and very impacting on their
lives ... the ABE program says the goal is unrealistic ... but that
really does not matter to the person coming in, the customer ... the GED
is what they need and the GED is what is their goal ...saying or
inferring that the goal can not be met or met in a timely fashion is a
major reason why they customer will leave, and we failed them.  

 

Currently the ABE system offers an approach that provides a path to the
GED on average that will take 3-5 years (that means for some its will be
a lot faster, and for other much, much longer, if at all ... ) and  then


 

We measure our success with a great deal of  "selection bias" , which
makes it appear that our programs do better then they do ... (in this
case the selection is that those who stay often only need a limited
amount of help and those who don't stay are the ones who need a lot more
help ... and therefore ... in the short run it appears out programs work
for many of those who stay ... but the selection bias is very great and
we can not really say that the programs, on average, really work well
for the majority of those in need ...only for whom the current model
fits and then only some of them.)

 

My point is that we should not be saying ... the goal is unrealistic.
That does not help the client.  We need to be asking ... how can this
client's goal be reached? To meet her/his needs ... to address to their
crisis ....And if we consistently can not meet the goal ... then is it
ABE that needs to be changing, not limiting or changing the goals of the
customers ... Can we figure out a way to not say we can't meet these
much needed goals ... but to be asking how can we "modernize" to meet
the goals? ....   And to steal a much used phrase of this political
season ... yes we can! 

 

So what is the change?   For the person who asked about Orton
Gillingham, while a far more valid approach to reading for adults then
the methods mostly used  ... that is not a solution for the short time
... it still takes years to gain the skills ...often taking hundreds of
hours that builds on the intensity of each session (something most
adults do not have the time to do, in a concentrated time fashion.) ...
and also the key problem in passing the GED is not just reading skills
but knowledge ... and so we need a solution that focuses gaining the
knowledge to pass the GED.)  

 

Therefore ... again ... I am asking ... is there a different approach, a
different paradigm in which we can meet the needs of the greater amount
of customers?  The ones who appear to have such "unrealistic" but really
needed goals. Not meeting the needs of the teachers in thinking they are
helping by increasing the literacy skills to some degree, but a
different way of helping out customers meet their needs in reaching the
much needed goal of getting the GED, or keeping that job, or getting a
new job or staying on welfare till they can work, or getting into the
apprenticeship program, or retraining to fit the new economy  ... etc...
you know, ...  what the customers needs.

 ... 

 

So I do say yes ... and it is not that more costly ... and considering
cost benefit analysis ... it is far cheaper .... Then the current
models, and far more productive for the customer ... And when I give the
solution ... I can hear all the objections now ... because it is really
so customer focused (and teachers are not the customers of ABE) but I
just want the chance to prove it ...   And if we can just get a state or
two to field test the idea ... I can prove it too ... (unfortunately the
big grant foundation I was after, and had high hopes for,  just turned
us down ....) anyone got a little funding to create a new world or
opportunities?

 

Oh yes ... the solution ... like a good cliffhanger  ... details later
... after more response.  

 

Glenn Young

CSLD

530 Auburn Ave

Buffalo NY 14222

Cell 703-864-3755

Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

website: glennyoungcsld.com

________________________________

From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:00 AM
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1801] Re: Controversial again

 

Dear List,

I could write forever about this, but I'll try to be succint:

 

First of all, adult literacy programs are working with a very
challenging population. We work with people who--for a variety of
largely unresearched reasons--did not learn to read in the ways that
most people were able to learn. It is unrealistic to expect that people
who have struggled all their lives to learn how to read would all
suddenly have an easy time of learning. 

 

Also, what are we talking about when we talk about students achieving
their ABE goals? Most people come to my program saying they want their
GED. Many take years to get that. Some don't ever get a GED, but they
improve their literacy levels. What is the impact on income, civic
involvement, children's literacy levels if someone's reading level goes
up? We don't know,  but I would sure like to find out. 

 

Finally, why is it considered a problem if 20% drop out in the first few
hours? 80% stay and 20% decide they are not ready to make the commitment
now. It's like joining a gym. It's easy to sign up, but hard to work out
three times a week. Also, how many of those 20% come back later when the
time is right?

 

from Bruce Carmel

Glenn Young <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> wrote:

	OK David ... but that's just your nature
	
	Are there others?
	
	Glenn Young
	CSLD
	530 Auburn Ave
	Buffalo NY 14222
	Cell 703-864-3755
	Phone/Fax 716-882-2842
	website: glennyoungcsld.com
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov
	[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of
David J. Rosen
	Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46 AM
	To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
	Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1796] Controversial again
	
	Glenn,
	
	On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:
	
	> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd
like to 
	> see if this stimulates conversation.
	
	I'm intrigued. Continue.
	
	David J. Rosen
	djrosen at comcast.net
	
	On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:
	> OK . I've been urged to come back in and raise a few 
	> "controversial" points
	>
	>
	>
	> So . let me start by asking some questions - Leading to the 
	> conclusion --- that we need to comprehensive reform of the ABE

	> system . and that reform needs to focus on the extensive use
of the 
	> new technologies that are generally available to all (who can 
	> afford them) . and these questions are:
	>
	>
	>
	> On average . how long does it take for a person entering ABE 
	> programs to reach their goals, if they stay in the program
long 
	> enough to reach their goals?
	>
	>
	>
	> On average . how many persons entering ABE programs "drop out"

	> before reaching their goals?
	>
	>
	>
	> And again, on average, how many "efforts" (starting and then 
	> dropping out and then starting again) does it take for an ABE 
	> student to reach their goals?
	>
	>
	>
	> The answer to these questions will of course vary from
location to 
	> location (great teachers, more "modern" approaches, less
"impacted" 
	> students .
	>
	>
	>
	> Also the current answers will change quite a bit as the 
	> demographics of the ABE population changes as more of the
impacts 
	> of NCLB are felt in the ABE programs (which we have seen quite
a 
	> bit of change in the demographics especially in the South,
where 
	> ABE has become the standard "placement" for 10th graders who
do not 
	> "test well" and high school drop out rates have soared in the
past 
	> 7 years .
	>
	>
	>
	> OK . given all of that . anyone want to guess at what the
"current 
	> numbers seem to be?
	>
	>
	>
	> So should I just give them?
	>
	>
	>
	> Well . I will give the best information I have . based on the
US 
	> DEPT of ED reports based on their National Reporting System .
which 
	> really does not cover these points very well . but we can see
what 
	> we can see ..
	>
	>
	>
	> On average . it currently takes some 3-5 years before a person

	> reaches their goals in ABE programs
	>
	> On average . in actuality very few persons stay 3-5 years and
so 
	> less then 10% actually reach their goals . at least 20% of
people 
	> drop out of programs within the first then hours of service .
	>
	> On average - people try something like 3 times before dropping
out 
	> for good.
	>
	>
	>
	> So . it appears on average the ABE system fails almost all it 
	> serves and fails them dramatically
	>
	>
	>
	> So . how do we change this?
	>
	>
	>
	> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd
like to 
	> see if this stimulates conversation.
	>
	>
	>
	> Thank
	>
	>
	>
	>
	>
	> Glenn Young
	>
	> CSLD
	>
	> 530 Auburn Ave
	>
	> Buffalo NY 14222
	>
	> Cell 703-864-3755
	>
	> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842
	>
	> website: glennyoungcsld.com
	----------------------------------------------------
	National Institute for Literacy
	Learning Disabilities mailing list
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	To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go
to
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	Email delivered to gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com
	
	----------------------------------------------------
	National Institute for Literacy
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	To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go
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	Email delivered to bcarmel at rocketmail.com

 

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