I would like to hear your proposal.  I heard you speak at NAASLN a
couple of years ago and I think you have some good ideas.  I am
anxious to hear this one!

---- Original Message ----
From: gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com
To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1814] Re: [Possible SPAM]
Re:Controversialagain
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:07:03 -0400


>Geraldine . Yes I have a proposal . but I was waiting to see if

>anyone was

>really paying attention .. So yes I do have you hanging to see if

>people

>were really open to a new approach to the issue .

>

> 

>

>So . if a few more ask . then I present it .

>

> 

>

>Glenn Young

>

>CSLD

>

>530 Auburn Ave

>

>Buffalo NY 14222

>

>Cell 703-864-3755

>

>Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>

>website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

>  _____  

>

>From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

>[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Hayden,

>Geraldine M.

>Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:53 PM

>To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1813] Re: [Possible SPAM] Re:

>Controversialagain

>

> 

>

>Glenn, I always tell my students that if you have a concern or

>complaint,

>you must offer a viable solution.  You seem to have us hanging with a

>plausible solution.  What do you have in mind?

>

> 

>

>Geri Hayden 

>

>Geraldine M. Hayden 

>SPED/504 Coordinator 

>Department of Correctional Education 

>Fluvanna Correctional Center for Women 

>

> 

>

>  _____  

>

>From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

>[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn

>Young

>Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:25 PM

>To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'

>Subject: [Possible SPAM] [LearningDisabilities 1805] Re:

>Controversial again

>

>Well at least I started some interesting discussion

>

> 

>

>And I must add that when we talk "on average" . what one must do .

>dear I

>say it . is not compare their local or even state programs per say .

>but to

>look at  the national aggravate data ..  We really can not tell

>without a

>great deal of work. where our state or local program fits along the

>"bell

>curve" of all ABE students or all ABE programs . So, while people

>respond to

>the data I present . based on their own programs or states it becomes

>a bit

>more problematic in how to have the discussion if they stand only on

>their

>local data . and want to have a dispute over a percentage or two . we

>need

>to look at the issues I am raising in a bit more of global

>perspective. 

>

> 

>

>And the key point that has been raised so far . that we can or can

>not

>measure success based on if students meet their goals . well that is

>the

>crux of my point . If we don't meet the goals of the students . what

>is our

>purpose?  

>

> 

>

>My point on this is that it does not really matter if we think the

>goals are

>unrealistic or not . it is their goals and they have a reason for 

>having

>these goals . and a reason often imposed upon them by other factors

>than the

>ABE system, or wishful thinking  . such as welfare clients being told

>they

>have 6 months to get a GED or they can't stay on welfare .

>unrealistic or

>not . the pressures upon them are real and therefore their goals are

>real to

>them . Also, if a person wants to get into an internship with a labor

>union

>or a training program in the food industry etc . and they may require

>a GED

>. the student's goal of getting the GED is an economic necessity, a

>great

>needed item . often the key to economic success for that student .

>and not

>something they can wait 3-5 years to obtain.

>

> 

>

>So with these pressure, which are very real and very impacting on

>their

>lives . the ABE program says the goal is unrealistic . but that

>really does

>not matter to the person coming in, the customer . the GED is what

>they need

>and the GED is what is their goal .saying or inferring that the goal

>can not

>be met or met in a timely fashion is a major reason why they customer

>will

>leave, and we failed them.  

>

> 

>

>Currently the ABE system offers an approach that provides a path to

>the GED

>on average that will take 3-5 years (that means for some its will be

>a lot

>faster, and for other much, much longer, if at all . ) and  then 

>

> 

>

>We measure our success with a great deal of  "selection bias" , which

>makes

>it appear that our programs do better then they do . (in this case

>the

>selection is that those who stay often only need a limited amount of

>help

>and those who don't stay are the ones who need a lot more help . and

>therefore . in the short run it appears out programs work for many of

>those

>who stay . but the selection bias is very great and we can not really

>say

>that the programs, on average, really work well for the majority of

>those in

>need .only for whom the current model fits and then only some of

>them.)

>

> 

>

>My point is that we should not be saying . the goal is unrealistic. 

>That

>does not help the client.  We need to be asking . how can this

>client's goal

>be reached? To meet her/his needs . to address to their crisis ..And

>if we

>consistently can not meet the goal . then is it ABE that needs to be

>changing, not limiting or changing the goals of the customers . Can

>we

>figure out a way to not say we can't meet these much needed goals .

>but to

>be asking how can we "modernize" to meet the goals? ..   And to steal

>a much

>used phrase of this political season . yes we can! 

>

> 

>

>So what is the change?   For the person who asked about Orton

>Gillingham,

>while a far more valid approach to reading for adults then the

>methods

>mostly used  . that is not a solution for the short time . it still

>takes

>years to gain the skills .often taking hundreds of hours that builds

>on the

>intensity of each session (something most adults do not have the time

>to do,

>in a concentrated time fashion.) . and also the key problem in

>passing the

>GED is not just reading skills but knowledge . and so we need a

>solution

>that focuses gaining the knowledge to pass the GED.)  

>

> 

>

>Therefore . again . I am asking . is there a different approach, a

>different

>paradigm in which we can meet the needs of the greater amount of

>customers?

>The ones who appear to have such "unrealistic" but really needed

>goals. Not

>meeting the needs of the teachers in thinking they are helping by

>increasing

>the literacy skills to some degree, but a different way of helping

>out

>customers meet their needs in reaching the much needed goal of

>getting the

>GED, or keeping that job, or getting a new job or staying on welfare

>till

>they can work, or getting into the apprenticeship program, or

>retraining to

>fit the new economy  . etc. you know, .  what the customers needs.

>

> . 

>

> 

>

>So I do say yes . and it is not that more costly . and considering

>cost

>benefit analysis . it is far cheaper .. Then the current models, and

>far

>more productive for the customer . And when I give the solution . I

>can hear

>all the objections now . because it is really so customer focused

>(and

>teachers are not the customers of ABE) but I just want the chance to

>prove

>it .   And if we can just get a state or two to field test the idea .

>I can

>prove it too . (unfortunately the big grant foundation I was after,

>and had

>high hopes for,  just turned us down ..) anyone got a little funding

>to

>create a new world or opportunities?

>

> 

>

>Oh yes . the solution . like a good cliffhanger  . details later .

>after

>more response.  

>

> 

>

>Glenn Young

>

>CSLD

>

>530 Auburn Ave

>

>Buffalo NY 14222

>

>Cell 703-864-3755

>

>Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>

>website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

>  _____  

>

>From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

>[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C

>Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:00 AM

>To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1801] Re: Controversial again

>

> 

>

>Dear List,

>

>I could write forever about this, but I'll try to be succint:

>

> 

>

>First of all, adult literacy programs are working with a very

>challenging

>population. We work with people who--for a variety of largely

>unresearched

>reasons--did not learn to read in the ways that most people were able

>to

>learn. It is unrealistic to expect that people who have struggled all

>their

>lives to learn how to read would all suddenly have an easy time of

>learning.

>

>

> 

>

>Also, what are we talking about when we talk about students achieving

>their

>ABE goals? Most people come to my program saying they want their GED.

>Many

>take years to get that. Some don't ever get a GED, but they improve

>their

>literacy levels. What is the impact on income, civic involvement,

>children's

>literacy levels if someone's reading level goes up? We don't know, 

>but I

>would sure like to find out. 

>

> 

>

>Finally, why is it considered a problem if 20% drop out in the first

>few

>hours? 80% stay and 20% decide they are not ready to make the

>commitment

>now. It's like joining a gym. It's easy to sign up, but hard to work

>out

>three times a week. Also, how many of those 20% come back later when

>the

>time is right?

>

> 

>

>from Bruce Carmel

>

>Glenn Young <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> wrote:

>

>OK David ... but that's just your nature

>

>Are there others?

>

>Glenn Young

>CSLD

>530 Auburn Ave

>Buffalo NY 14222

>Cell 703-864-3755

>Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

>[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David J.

>Rosen

>Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46 AM

>To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1796] Controversial again

>

>Glenn,

>

>On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

>

>> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to

>

>> see if this stimulates conversation.

>

>I'm intrigued. Continue.

>

>David J. Rosen

>djrosen at comcast.net

>

>On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

>> OK . I've been urged to come back in and raise a few 

>> "controversial" points

>>

>>

>>

>> So . let me start by asking some questions - Leading to the 

>> conclusion --- that we need to comprehensive reform of the ABE 

>> system . and that reform needs to focus on the extensive use of the

>

>> new technologies that are generally available to all (who can 

>> afford them) . and these questions are:

>>

>>

>>

>> On average . how long does it take for a person entering ABE 

>> programs to reach their goals, if they stay in the program long 

>> enough to reach their goals?

>>

>>

>>

>> On average . how many persons entering ABE programs "drop out" 

>> before reaching their goals?

>>

>>

>>

>> And again, on average, how many "efforts" (starting and then 

>> dropping out and then starting again) does it take for an ABE 

>> student to reach their goals?

>>

>>

>>

>> The answer to these questions will of course vary from location to 

>> location (great teachers, more "modern" approaches, less "impacted"

>

>> students .

>>

>>

>>

>> Also the current answers will change quite a bit as the 

>> demographics of the ABE population changes as more of the impacts 

>> of NCLB are felt in the ABE programs (which we have seen quite a 

>> bit of change in the demographics especially in the South, where 

>> ABE has become the standard "placement" for 10th graders who do not

>

>> "test well" and high school drop out rates have soared in the past 

>> 7 years .

>>

>>

>>

>> OK . given all of that . anyone want to guess at what the "current 

>> numbers seem to be?

>>

>>

>>

>> So should I just give them?

>>

>>

>>

>> Well . I will give the best information I have . based on the US 

>> DEPT of ED reports based on their National Reporting System . which

>

>> really does not cover these points very well . but we can see what 

>> we can see ..

>>

>>

>>

>> On average . it currently takes some 3-5 years before a person 

>> reaches their goals in ABE programs

>>

>> On average . in actuality very few persons stay 3-5 years and so 

>> less then 10% actually reach their goals . at least 20% of people 

>> drop out of programs within the first then hours of service .

>>

>> On average - people try something like 3 times before dropping out 

>> for good.

>>

>>

>>

>> So . it appears on average the ABE system fails almost all it 

>> serves and fails them dramatically

>>

>>

>>

>> So . how do we change this?

>>

>>

>>

>> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to

>

>> see if this stimulates conversation.

>>

>>

>>

>> Thank

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Glenn Young

>>

>> CSLD

>>

>> 530 Auburn Ave

>>

>> Buffalo NY 14222

>>

>> Cell 703-864-3755

>>

>> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>>

>> website: glennyoungcsld.com

>----------------------------------------------------

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>

>  _____  

>

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Adult Education and Literacy
1103 S. Cottage Grove
Kirksville, MO   63501
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(660) 626-1477-fax
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