I really like that response

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Young" <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com>
To: "'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'" 
<learningdisabilities at nifl.gov>; <smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:05 PM
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1834] Re: are we blaming the victim?



>I disagree with the premise you are presenting ... that it's the students

> "responsibility" to be ready ...

>

> What is happening is they are coming in with needs and the programs are

> offering a response that does not meet their needs .... (Getting the GED

> Quickly, for example) And they leave ... and then they find out that they

> still need to "get the ticket" so they come back ... and still it does not

> meet their needs

>

> But then they find there is no alternative ... so they come back and keep

> trying for years ...

>

> This is not a positive picture ... and by saying this is the "student's

> responsibility ... this is kind of like "blaming the victim"

>

> We should and can now have a system that really meets the immediate needs 

> of

> the learners and focuses on that need ... through a new model ... they 

> don't

> need to drop out time and time again ... if we give them what they really

> need ... rather then only what we think we can offer ...

>

> We need to be customer focused and not blame the customer if they don't 

> like

> or want what we offer ....

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:learning-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Cindy Fischer

> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:28 PM

> To: smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu; learningdisabilities at nifl.gov

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1829] Re: [Possible

> SPAM]Re:Controversialagain

>

> Susan,

> I agree with you 100%.  Our learners don't drop out.  On any given day, we

> have two three who return after stopping out for more than 3 years.  Many

> have to wait until they're ready to make that commitment.  Yes, we need to

> "capture their attention" within the first three weeks, or they vote with

> their feet.  However, if they're not ready, nothing can change it.  The

> beautiful thing is that so many do return when they're ready, and we're 

> here

> waiting for them -- no questions asked.

> Cindy

>

> "If you believe in good things, you can  make them happen."

>>>> "McGilloway, Susan" <smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu> 03/26/08 1:44 PM >>>

> I don't think we fail if a student "stops out". We have many students who 

> do

> that. "Stopping out" is one of the characteristics of adult literacy

> learners. We had one student who, after ten years in the program on and 

> off,

> finally graduated through the External Diploma Program. Sometimes it is a

> question of finding the right path for the student. We encourage students 

> to

> take whichever path serves their needs. In our program we have a 75%

> retention rate. We do a great deal of professional development on 

> retention

> and have focus groups among our 100+ teachers where they share their

> strategies for retention. Also, we don't keep teachers who have poor

> retention. We serve around 1800 ABE/GED students/year and just as many 

> ESOL

> and so we see it all. Our numbers are above the national and state 

> averages.

>

> Our instructional specialist communicates with teachers through email and

> phone on a daily basis, provides the latest in strategies, ideas for

> differentiated instruction, brain based learning research - literally

> anything that will promote learning and retention. Her theory is "if you

> don't get their attention in the first three weeks, you lose them." We 

> have,

> for the most part, a very student centered program in which many of our

> teachers use differentiated instruction. We also have paid literacy aides

> and volunteers who serve as classroom assistants and individual tutors who

> meet with students to supplement classroom instruction.

>

> Our twenty classroom advisors assist students with barriers that prevent

> them from coming to class. We have a strong enrollment management plan in

> which we offer classes at different days/time/location according to the 

> data

> from our market trends. Also, we have year round and late start classes 

> that

> serve the needs of those students who can't start right away or who want 

> to

> get started immediately. Even with all this, we have a hundred students on

> our waiting list for next semester.

>

> Do we fail...absolutely not!

>

> Sue McGilloway

> Coordinator, Volunteers in Partnership

> CAFL Career Advisor

> CCBC Center for Adult and Family Literacy

> 410-285-9933 Phone

> smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Trish Hembrough

> Sent: Wed 3/26/2008 9:31 AM

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1816] Re: [Possible

> SPAM]Re:Controversialagain

>

>

> Glenn,

> Consider yourself officially asked! I am waiting anxiously - on pins and

> needles! :-)

> Trish

>

> Patricia Hembrough

> Director of Education Services

> Adult Learner Program

> Project Hope

> 550 Dudley Street

> Roxbury, MA 02119

> 617-442-1880 ext.250

> www.prohope.org <http://www.prohope.org/>

> where families move up and out of poverty

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn Young

> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:07 PM

> To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1814] Re: [Possible SPAM]

> Re:Controversialagain

>

> Geraldine ... Yes I have a proposal ... but I was waiting to see if anyone

> was really paying attention .... So yes I do have you hanging to see if

> people were really open to a new approach to the issue ...

>

> So ... if a few more ask ... then I present it ...

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Hayden,

> Geraldine M.

> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:53 PM

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1813] Re: [Possible SPAM] Re:

> Controversialagain

>

> Glenn, I always tell my students that if you have a concern or complaint,

> you must offer a viable solution.  You seem to have us hanging with a

> plausible solution.  What do you have in mind?

>

> Geri Hayden

> Geraldine M. Hayden

> SPED/504 Coordinator

> Department of Correctional Education

> Fluvanna Correctional Center for Women

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn Young

> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:25 PM

> To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'

> Subject: [Possible SPAM] [LearningDisabilities 1805] Re: Controversial 

> again

> Well at least I started some interesting discussion

>

> And I must add that when we talk "on average" ... what one must do ... 

> dear

> I say it ... is not compare their local or even state programs per say ...

> but to look at  the national aggravate data ....  We really can not tell

> without a great deal of work... where our state or local program fits 

> along

> the "bell curve" of all ABE students or all ABE programs ... So, while

> people respond to the data I present ... based on their own programs or

> states it becomes a bit more problematic in how to have the discussion if

> they stand only on their local data ... and want to have a dispute over a

> percentage or two ... we need to look at the issues I am raising in a bit

> more of global perspective.

>

> And the key point that has been raised so far ... that we can or can not

> measure success based on if students meet their goals ... well that is the

> crux of my point ... If we don't meet the goals of the students ... what 

> is

> our purpose?

>

> My point on this is that it does not really matter if we think the goals 

> are

> unrealistic or not ... it is their goals and they have a reason for 

> having

> these goals ... and a reason often imposed upon them by other factors than

> the ABE system, or wishful thinking  ... such as welfare clients being 

> told

> they have 6 months to get a GED or they can't stay on welfare ...

> unrealistic or not ... the pressures upon them are real and therefore 

> their

> goals are real to them ... Also, if a person wants to get into an 

> internship

> with a labor union or a training program in the food industry etc ... and

> they may require a GED ... the student's goal of getting the GED is an

> economic necessity, a great needed item ... often the key to economic

> success for that student ... and not something they can wait 3-5 years to

> obtain.

>

> So with these pressure, which are very real and very impacting on their

> lives ... the ABE program says the goal is unrealistic ... but that really

> does not matter to the person coming in, the customer ... the GED is what

> they need and the GED is what is their goal ...saying or inferring that 

> the

> goal can not be met or met in a timely fashion is a major reason why they

> customer will leave, and we failed them.

>

> Currently the ABE system offers an approach that provides a path to the 

> GED

> on average that will take 3-5 years (that means for some its will be a lot

> faster, and for other much, much longer, if at all ... ) and  then

>

> We measure our success with a great deal of  "selection bias" , which 

> makes

> it appear that our programs do better then they do ... (in this case the

> selection is that those who stay often only need a limited amount of help

> and those who don't stay are the ones who need a lot more help ... and

> therefore ... in the short run it appears out programs work for many of

> those who stay ... but the selection bias is very great and we can not

> really say that the programs, on average, really work well for the 

> majority

> of those in need ...only for whom the current model fits and then only 

> some

> of them.)

>

> My point is that we should not be saying ... the goal is unrealistic. 

> That

> does not help the client.  We need to be asking ... how can this client's

> goal be reached? To meet her/his needs ... to address to their crisis

> ....And if we consistently can not meet the goal ... then is it ABE that

> needs to be changing, not limiting or changing the goals of the customers

> ... Can we figure out a way to not say we can't meet these much needed 

> goals

> ... but to be asking how can we "modernize" to meet the goals? ....   And 

> to

> steal a much used phrase of this political season ... yes we can!

>

> So what is the change?   For the person who asked about Orton Gillingham,

> while a far more valid approach to reading for adults then the methods

> mostly used  ... that is not a solution for the short time ... it still

> takes years to gain the skills ...often taking hundreds of hours that 

> builds

> on the intensity of each session (something most adults do not have the 

> time

> to do, in a concentrated time fashion.) ... and also the key problem in

> passing the GED is not just reading skills but knowledge ... and so we 

> need

> a solution that focuses gaining the knowledge to pass the GED.)

>

> Therefore ... again ... I am asking ... is there a different approach, a

> different paradigm in which we can meet the needs of the greater amount of

> customers?  The ones who appear to have such "unrealistic" but really 

> needed

> goals. Not meeting the needs of the teachers in thinking they are helping 

> by

> increasing the literacy skills to some degree, but a different way of

> helping out customers meet their needs in reaching the much needed goal of

> getting the GED, or keeping that job, or getting a new job or staying on

> welfare till they can work, or getting into the apprenticeship program, or

> retraining to fit the new economy  ... etc... you know, ...  what the

> customers needs.

> ...

>

> So I do say yes ... and it is not that more costly ... and considering 

> cost

> benefit analysis ... it is far cheaper .... Then the current models, and 

> far

> more productive for the customer ... And when I give the solution ... I 

> can

> hear all the objections now ... because it is really so customer focused

> (and teachers are not the customers of ABE) but I just want the chance to

> prove it ...   And if we can just get a state or two to field test the 

> idea

> ... I can prove it too ... (unfortunately the big grant foundation I was

> after, and had high hopes for,  just turned us down ....) anyone got a

> little funding to create a new world or opportunities?

>

> Oh yes ... the solution ... like a good cliffhanger  ... details later ...

> after more response.

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C

> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:00 AM

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1801] Re: Controversial again

>

> Dear List,

> I could write forever about this, but I'll try to be succint:

>

> First of all, adult literacy programs are working with a very challenging

> population. We work with people who--for a variety of largely unresearched

> reasons--did not learn to read in the ways that most people were able to

> learn. It is unrealistic to expect that people who have struggled all 

> their

> lives to learn how to read would all suddenly have an easy time of 

> learning.

>

>

> Also, what are we talking about when we talk about students achieving 

> their

> ABE goals? Most people come to my program saying they want their GED. Many

> take years to get that. Some don't ever get a GED, but they improve their

> literacy levels. What is the impact on income, civic involvement, 

> children's

> literacy levels if someone's reading level goes up? We don't know,  but I

> would sure like to find out.

>

> Finally, why is it considered a problem if 20% drop out in the first few

> hours? 80% stay and 20% decide they are not ready to make the commitment

> now. It's like joining a gym. It's easy to sign up, but hard to work out

> three times a week. Also, how many of those 20% come back later when the

> time is right?

>

> from Bruce Carmel

>

> Glenn Young <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> OK David ... but that's just your nature

>

> Are there others?

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David J.

> Rosen

> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46 AM

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1796] Controversial again

>

> Glenn,

>

> On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

>

> > Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like

> to

> > see if this stimulates conversation.

>

> I'm intrigued. Continue.

>

> David J. Rosen

> djrosen at comcast.net

>

> On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

> > OK . I've been urged to come back in and raise a few

> > "controversial" points

> >

> >

> >

> > So . let me start by asking some questions - Leading to the

> > conclusion --- that we need to comprehensive reform of the ABE

> > system . and that reform needs to focus on the extensive use of

> the

> > new technologies that are generally available to all (who can

> > afford them) . and these questions are:

> >

> >

> >

> > On average . how long does it take for a person entering ABE

> > programs to reach their goals, if they stay in the program long

> > enough to reach their goals?

> >

> >

> >

> > On average . how many persons entering ABE programs "drop out"

> > before reaching their goals?

> >

> >

> >

> > And again, on average, how many "efforts" (starting and then

> > dropping out and then starting again) does it take for an ABE

> > student to reach their goals?

> >

> >

> >

> > The answer to these questions will of course vary from location to

>

> > location (great teachers, more "modern" approaches, less

> "impacted"

> > students .

> >

> >

> >

> > Also the current answers will change quite a bit as the

> > demographics of the ABE population changes as more of the impacts

> > of NCLB are felt in the ABE programs (which we have seen quite a

> > bit of change in the demographics especially in the South, where

> > ABE has become the standard "placement" for 10th graders who do

> not

> > "test well" and high school drop out rates have soared in the past

>

> > 7 years .

> >

> >

> >

> > OK . given all of that . anyone want to guess at what the "current

>

> > numbers seem to be?

> >

> >

> >

> > So should I just give them?

> >

> >

> >

> > Well . I will give the best information I have . based on the US

> > DEPT of ED reports based on their National Reporting System .

> which

> > really does not cover these points very well . but we can see what

>

> > we can see ..

> >

> >

> >

> > On average . it currently takes some 3-5 years before a person

> > reaches their goals in ABE programs

> >

> > On average . in actuality very few persons stay 3-5 years and so

> > less then 10% actually reach their goals . at least 20% of people

> > drop out of programs within the first then hours of service .

> >

> > On average - people try something like 3 times before dropping out

>

> > for good.

> >

> >

> >

> > So . it appears on average the ABE system fails almost all it

> > serves and fails them dramatically

> >

> >

> >

> > So . how do we change this?

> >

> >

> >

> > Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like

> to

> > see if this stimulates conversation.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Glenn Young

> >

> > CSLD

> >

> > 530 Auburn Ave

> >

> > Buffalo NY 14222

> >

> > Cell 703-864-3755

> >

> > Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> >

> > website: glennyoungcsld.com

> ----------------------------------------------------

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