Wendy--Interesting;  your bring up the rural/urban split as well as the  
national origin split.  it is certainly hard to live in 2 camps at  
once--1)	Correct English;  2) Regional Dialect.  Correct English says  
"all have to learn to read the words properly;"  while Regional Dialect  
says:  "Wow! Listen to that pronunciation!"	  Example:  I was thrilled  
when I first heard "chirrun" for "children."  I think it's incumbent on  
teachers to open up  discussion of these dilemmas for students.

Andrea

On Dec 27, 2006, at 10:06 AM, Jackson, Wendy P. wrote:


> This question not only applies to African Americans. I live in East  

> Tennessee where our Southern dialect is tinged with a left over  

> version of the Scotts-Irish. I was born here, but grew up in Atlanta.  

> My dialect is tinged with the slow drawl of Georgia and the East  

> Tennessee brogue. When I was in college at Berry College in Rome, Ga  

> my English Professor told us that we had to speak in a manner that was  

> understandable to all. He was from Connecticut and did not speak  

> southern. The phrase "that dog won't hunt" meant nothing to him. It  

> was not a matter of what was best, but what was most widely  

> understood. Among family and friends, I tend to be very southern in my  

> speech (minus the heavy Georgia drawl of my sisters who have lived in  

> Georgia all their lives). At work and professional settings, I try to  

> drop the parts of speech that would make it difficult to follow. My  

> husband says "warsh" for "wash" and  allowed to learn reading skills  

> under that rule would affect a great many pronunciations. I try to  

> emphasize not right and wrong or best and worst, but most widely  

> understood. Correction is required for them to be best understood  

> outside of their cultural/ethnic group.

>

> Just my 2 cents...

> Wendy

>

>

> Wendy Jackson

> Roane County Adult Education

> Roane State Community College

> 1082 N Gateway Ave.

> Rockwood, TN 37854

> (865) 376-6013

> jacksonwp at roanestate.edu

>

> ________________________________

>

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:07:19 -0800 (PST)

> From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 137] Re: dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>         <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <20061224160719.49022.qmail at web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> Daphne,

>

>    If indeed it is true that "their dialect is their dialect and is  

> just as

> acceptable as standard english" then their pronunciation needs no  

> correction.

>

>    I would ask this teacher what her goals are for her students. If  

> her goal is to bring them "up" to the norms of a culture that is  

> widely recognized as substandard, then she should let them pronounce  

> words anyway they like. After all, you wouldn't want to make anyone  

> feel uncomfortable.

>    However, if her goal is to  raise her students' abilities above the  

> literacy norms of the society in which they have  been conditioned,  

> then she should correct their every error without remorse.

>

> I cannot believe you are axing this question.

>

> Kearney Lykins

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 10:31:09 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136]  dialect

>

> I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I

> wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic decoding

> skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition to  

> a

> language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time

> systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her  

> African

> American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain

> words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as  

> "aks"

> and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is

> focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to

> decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way

> they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is  

> not

> concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as

> acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is  

> teaching

> decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be  

> correcting

> the way they read those words?

> What do people think?

> Daphne

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

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> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

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> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

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>

>

>

>

>

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> Message: 3

> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:48:02 -0600

> From: "Catherine B. King" <cb.king at verizon.net>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 138] Re: dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>         <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <001001c7277b$4810cdf0$cad2193f at YOUR85A8F7B8EC>

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>         reply-type=original

>

> Hello Daphne:

>

> This comes up in my classes frequently--where my teachers are "caught"

> between correcting someone's treasured tradition (in how they express

> themselves, their dialect, etc.) and what we mean by "Standard  

> English."

>

> The task is to maintain a high regard for their tradition, while  

> introducing

> them into what Jesse Jackson refers to as the "cash language" of our  

> time so

> that they can operate well in it.  It's not a matter of "either or,"  

> but

> rather of knowing both, as if there were actually two different  

> languages to

> learn, and being able to "walk around" (discourse) in either/both at  

> the

> **appropriate** times.  Their other task is to know which is which.

>

> As a teacher we just let them know that this is the general outline of  

> their

> task, and they will then be able to choose to do it--or not.  As  

> teachers,

> we need not make what amounts to moral or qualitative judgments about

> someone's treasured dialect (or suggest that they must make such  

> judgments

> about themselves)--the language that most in their home environment  

> still

> speak, and will continue to speak.

>

> It's sort of like learning how to discourse in technical language (in  

> any

> theoretical or professional field) after having learned "common"  

> language

> and the meaning of its terms.   That is, using common meaning and its  

> terms

> is one thing, and is appropriate when spoken at home or at the grocery

> store, etc.; however, using technical meaning is quite another; and  

> when we

> discourse in our field, or in a specific technical-theoretical field,  

> we are

> very specific and defined about what we mean; and we use completely

> different meanings for sometimes-similar terms that, to the grocery  

> clerk,

> would come off as sounding completely "weird and foggy."

>

> Like we would not want to replace common with theoretical discourse in  

> the

> grocery store (how awful would THAT be), we often do not want to  

> suggest

> replacing a learner's dialect with what we mean by "Standard English."

> Trying to do so puts the learner in the position of having to choose  

> between

> what is "better" (presumably Standard English) all of the time, and  

> what is

> "worse" (presumably, their own dialect and "home language) all of the  

> time.

> And there is often some shame involved--which has been a topic here on  

> this

> forum recently.   This situation is entirely UNnecessary.

>

> On the other hand, there is a great and necessary value to standards,  

> and of

> course to Standard English or any other written language--it's  

> becoming a

> worldwide language.

>

> This is not all there is to it; however, if a learner is going to  

> operate in

> the "cash language," i.e., work in an office, etc., they need to  

> **also**

> know how to speak "Roman as the Roman's do."   <--we must make it what  

> it

> is--to THEIR advantage to do so.  We add a differentiation, and not an

> either/or choice tinged with some sort of arrogance associated with  

> "white"

> standard English.

>

> In brief, one way is to treat Standard English as if it were another

> language altogether, which in some cases and sense, it is.

>

> I hope this helps,

>

> Catherine B. King

> Adjunct Instructor

> Department of Education

> National University

> San Diego, CA

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Daphne Greenberg" <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:31 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136] dialect

>

>

>> I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I

>> wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic decoding

>> skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition  

>> to a

>> language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time

>> systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her  

>> African

>> American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain

>> words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as  

>> "aks"

>> and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is

>> focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to

>> decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way

>> they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is  

>> not

>> concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as

>> acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is  

>> teaching

>> decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be  

>> correcting

>> the way they read those words?

>> What do people think?

>> Daphne

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

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> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to  

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