I think it's important for everyone to understand that they speak in  
"dialect."  I have certainly been reminded enough n the past that I  
speak in a "dialect."

Like so much (all?) in adult literacy, this is a question of power.   
The dialect I speak is closer in pronunciation to Standard English  
speech than many adult learners, I am guessing.

There is also another  part to the reading question--it seems to me  
that student dialect might change as  the student learns to attend more  
to reading words on the page.  This has happened to me, when I see for  
the first time  a different language when I have been only speaking it  
previously.  I have an Ah-ha!  feeling--this is how the speech is  
recorded.

Andrea
On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:26 AM, Jenny Horsman wrote:


> Thanks Angela - I was eager to read June Jordan's article but sadly  

> its not

> available in the pdf "due to copyright restrictions" (along with a lot  

> of

> other wonderful sounding articles which I assume must all have been  

> reprints

> - can you give us the full reference of where it was originally  

> published

> I'd love to read it.

>

> Thanks too for reminding me of the past issues of the Change Agent -  

> there

> are many that have powerful articles for an online course that I am

> designing on violence and learning - I love that at least most of each  

> issue

> is available online.

>

> Jenny

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Angela Orlando

> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:42 PM

> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 145] Re: dialect and standard English

>

> Regarding "dialect" and "standard English"--a provocative and powerful

> essay by June Jordan called "White English/Black English: The Politics

> of Translation" addresses this dilemma well. The Change Agent reprinted

> this in our March 2003 Language and Power issue, page 15. You can get  

> to

> the article by downloading the entire PDF (but it's a big file) at

> http://www.nelrc.org/changeagent/backissues.htm. There are a couple

> of other articles on this dilemma as well in the same issue (page 6 and

> 7)

>

>

> Cheers,

> Angela Orlando

>

> Angela Orlando

> Change Agent Editor

> World Education

> 44 Farnsworth Street

> Boston, MA  02210

>

> tel: 617-482-9485

> fax: 617-482-0617

> email: aorlando at worlded.org

>

> Check out The Change Agent online at:

> www.nelrc.org/changeagent

>

>

>>>> <povertyracewomen-request at nifl.gov> 12/27/2006 10:57 AM >>>

> Send PovertyRaceWomen mailing list submissions to

> 	povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

>

> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

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> than "Re: Contents of PovertyRaceWomen digest..."

>

>

> Today's Topics:

>

>    1. [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect

>       (Burkett, Barry)

>    2. [PovertyRaceWomen 143] Re: gender differences in pay and

>       dialect (andreawilder at comcast.net)

>    3. [PovertyRaceWomen 144] Re: dialect (Jackson, Wendy P.)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:41:47 -0500

> From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List"

> 	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID:

> 	<5B5DF9F227918548AD5FF668A2E84EBC22E6B1 at ED181X1.franklin.ketsds.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> Maybe this is jsut the man in me talking, but what I find discouraging

> and disheartening is that some people are "less" professional than

> others; i.e. Lawyers vs. Professional Teachers, Teachers vs. Bus

> Drivers... or in my case "Certified" personnell vs. "Classified"

> personnell.

>

> As the reporter was eluding to, some women do choose to make less, and

> some women strive to make more, as do men.  Maybe another issue is that

> some people are more firm at vocalizing what they want, along with  

> being

> more insistant that they get it.

>

> As far as dialect is concerned instead of using the term "Standard"

> English I know many practitioners use the term of "Business" English.

> But similar to what Andrea said in her previous posting, what is the

> goal of the teacher, to reinforce miscues or correct.  If one is able  

> to

> teach "Standard" and the student owns it, the student will effectively

> know two languges, one of their folk and one of business, it is

> empowering to know both.  Such as me being college educated, I grew up

> in varied urban settings, and more recently began farming, the

> backgorund allows me to work and connect people of many different

> backgrounds at their level.  Or like many of Hip-Hop's nouveau riche,

> who compare their business skills to hustlin to make ends meet;

> language, in its varied forms, is a powerful tool.

>

> Now, how does dialect and sex tie in with pay?  I think that would be

> interesting to find out.

>

> Does the Newsweek editorial, "My Black Skin Makes My White Coat

> Vanish," from April 3, 2006 have anything to add to the discussion?

> Peoples perceptions... pre-conceived notions, etc.?

>

> Barry Burkett

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

> Sent: Mon 12/25/2006 7:19 PM

> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 141] Re: gender differences in pay

>

>

>

> This is discouraging and disheartening.

>

> Andrea

>

>

> On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Daphne Greenberg wrote:

>

>> I thought that some of you may be interested in the following

> article

>> found at:

>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>> THE NEW GENDER DIVIDE

>> Gender Pay Gap, Once Narrowing, Is Stuck in Place

>> By DAVID LEONHARDT

>> A decade ago, it seemed that men and women with similar

> qualifications

>> might soon make nearly identical salaries.

>> Today, that is far harder to envision.

>> And a quote:

>> "Nothing happened to the pay gap from the mid-1950s to the late

> '70s.

>> Then the '80s stood out as a period of sharp increases in women's

> pay.

>> And it's much less impressive after that."

>> - FRANCINE D. BLAU, a Cornell economist, on gender differences in

> pay.

>>

>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>>

>> Daphne Greenberg

>> Assistant Professor

>> Educational Psych. & Special Ed.

>> Georgia State University

>> P.O. Box 3979

>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3979

>> phone: 404-651-0127

>> fax:404-651-4901

>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>>

>> Daphne Greenberg

>> Associate Director

>> Center for the Study of Adult Literacy

>> Georgia State University

>> P.O. Box 3977

>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3977

>> phone: 404-651-0127

>> fax:404-651-4901

>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>

>

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> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:08:52 +0000

> From: andreawilder at comcast.net

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 143] Re: gender differences in pay and

> 	dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race,	Women and Literacy Discussion List"

> 	<povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID:

> 	

> <122720060008.21094.4591B993000C143E0000526622058860149D0A0B0407990E0A9 

> D0B02

> 0E at comcast.net>

> 	

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> OK, so I'll have to go over the article more carefully.

>

> Another thing I find disheartening and discouraging (also curious) is

> the lack of outcry (in print) from the husbands of these women, it's

> their bottom line that is affected, too.  Let's see, how much of  a

> dollar discrepancy in pay would make a  partner sit up and take notice?

> $5,000?  $10,000? How much of a dollar discrepancy would make women

> fighting mad?

>

> Andrea

>  -------------- Original message ----------------------

> From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>

>> Maybe this is jsut the man in me talking, but what I find

> discouraging and

>> disheartening is that some people are "less" professional than

> others; i.e.

>> Lawyers vs. Professional Teachers, Teachers vs. Bus Drivers... or in

> my case

>> "Certified" personnell vs. "Classified" personnell.

>>

>> As the reporter was eluding to, some women do choose to make less,

> and some

>> women strive to make more, as do men.  Maybe another issue is that

> some people

>> are more firm at vocalizing what they want, along with being more

> insistant that

>> they get it.

>>

>> As far as dialect is concerned instead of using the term "Standard"

> English I

>> know many practitioners use the term of "Business" English.  But

> similar to what

>> Andrea said in her previous posting, what is the goal of the teacher,

> to

>> reinforce miscues or correct.  If one is able to teach "Standard" and

> the

>> student owns it, the student will effectively know two languges, one

> of their

>> folk and one of business, it is empowering to know both.  Such as me

> being

>> college educated, I grew up in varied urban settings, and more

> recently began

>> farming, the backgorund allows me to work and connect people of many

> different

>> backgrounds at their level.  Or like many of Hip-Hop's nouveau riche,

> who

>> compare their business skills to hustlin to make ends meet; language,

> in its

>> varied forms, is a powerful tool.

>>

>> Now, how does dialect and sex tie in with pay?  I think that would be

>

>> interesting to find out.

>>

>> Does the Newsweek editorial, "My Black Skin Makes My White Coat

> Vanish," from

>> April 3, 2006 have anything to add to the discussion?  Peoples

> perceptions...

>> pre-conceived notions, etc.?

>>

>> Barry Burkett

>>

>>

>> ________________________________

>>

>> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Andrea Wilder

>> Sent: Mon 12/25/2006 7:19 PM

>> To: The Poverty, Race,Women and Literacy Discussion List

>> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 141] Re: gender differences in pay

>>

>>

>>

>> This is discouraging and disheartening.

>>

>> Andrea

>>

>>

>> On Dec 24, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Daphne Greenberg wrote:

>>

>>> I thought that some of you may be interested in the following

> article

>>> found at:

>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>>> THE NEW GENDER DIVIDE

>>> Gender Pay Gap, Once Narrowing, Is Stuck in Place

>>> By DAVID LEONHARDT

>>> A decade ago, it seemed that men and women with similar

> qualifications

>>> might soon make nearly identical salaries.

>>> Today, that is far harder to envision.

>>> And a quote:

>>> "Nothing happened to the pay gap from the mid-1950s to the late

> '70s.

>>> Then the '80s stood out as a period of sharp increases in women's

> pay.

>>> And it's much less impressive after that."

>>> - FRANCINE D. BLAU, a Cornell economist, on gender differences in

> pay.

>>>

>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/business/24gap.html?th&emc=th

>>>

>>> Daphne Greenberg

>>> Assistant Professor

>>> Educational Psych. & Special Ed.

>>> Georgia State University

>>> P.O. Box 3979

>>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3979

>>> phone: 404-651-0127

>>> fax:404-651-4901

>>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>>>

>>> Daphne Greenberg

>>> Associate Director

>>> Center for the Study of Adult Literacy

>>> Georgia State University

>>> P.O. Box 3977

>>> Atlanta, Georgia 30302-3977

>>> phone: 404-651-0127

>>> fax:404-651-4901

>>> dgreenberg at gsu.edu

>>> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>>

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>>

>>

>

>

> -------------- next part --------------

> An embedded message was scrubbed...

> From: "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 142]  gender differences in pay and dialect

> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:59:12 +0000

> Size: 10184

> Url:

> http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/povertyracewomen/attachments/20061227/ 

> 242341e4

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>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:06:13 -0500

> From: "Jackson, Wendy P." <jacksonwp at roanestate.edu>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 144] Re: dialect

> To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID:

> 	<C34788CB9D11BC449275FA20E2E871FF073C567A at mailsrv2.rscc.cc.tn.us>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> This question not only applies to African Americans. I live in East

> Tennessee where our Southern dialect is tinged with a left over version

> of the Scotts-Irish. I was born here, but grew up in Atlanta. My  

> dialect

> is tinged with the slow drawl of Georgia and the East Tennessee brogue.

> When I was in college at Berry College in Rome, Ga my English Professor

> told us that we had to speak in a manner that was understandable to  

> all.

> He was from Connecticut and did not speak southern. The phrase "that  

> dog

> won't hunt" meant nothing to him. It was not a matter of what was best,

> but what was most widely understood. Among family and friends, I tend  

> to

> be very southern in my speech (minus the heavy Georgia drawl of my

> sisters who have lived in Georgia all their lives). At work and

> professional settings, I try to drop the parts of speech that would  

> make

> it difficult to follow. My husband says "warsh" for "wash" and  allowed

> to learn reading skills under that rule would affect a great many

>  pronunciations. I try to emphasize not right and wrong or best and

> worst, but most widely understood. Correction is required for them to  

> be

> best understood outside of their cultural/ethnic group.

>

> Just my 2 cents...

> Wendy

>

>

> Wendy Jackson

> Roane County Adult Education

> Roane State Community College

> 1082 N Gateway Ave.

> Rockwood, TN 37854

> (865) 376-6013

> jacksonwp at roanestate.edu

>

> ________________________________

>

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:07:19 -0800 (PST)

> From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 137] Re: dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>         <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <20061224160719.49022.qmail at web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> Daphne,

>

>    If indeed it is true that "their dialect is their dialect and is

> just as

> acceptable as standard english" then their pronunciation needs no

> correction.

>

>    I would ask this teacher what her goals are for her students. If her

> goal is to bring them "up" to the norms of a culture that is widely

> recognized as substandard, then she should let them pronounce words

> anyway they like. After all, you wouldn't want to make anyone feel

> uncomfortable.

>    However, if her goal is to  raise her students' abilities above the

> literacy norms of the society in which they have  been conditioned,  

> then

> she should correct their every error without remorse.

>

> I cannot believe you are axing this question.

>

> Kearney Lykins

>

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Daphne Greenberg <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 10:31:09 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136]  dialect

>

> I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I

> wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic decoding

> skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition to

> a

> language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time

> systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her

> African

> American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain

> words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as

> "aks"

> and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is

> focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to

> decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way

> they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is

> not

> concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as

> acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is

> teaching

> decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be

> correcting

> the way they read those words?

> What do people think?

> Daphne

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

> http://mail.yahoo.com

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>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:48:02 -0600

> From: "Catherine B. King" <cb.king at verizon.net>

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 138] Re: dialect

> To: "The Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy Discussion List"

>         <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Message-ID: <001001c7277b$4810cdf0$cad2193f at YOUR85A8F7B8EC>

> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;

>         reply-type=original

>

> Hello Daphne:

>

> This comes up in my classes frequently--where my teachers are "caught"

> between correcting someone's treasured tradition (in how they express

> themselves, their dialect, etc.) and what we mean by "Standard

> English."

>

> The task is to maintain a high regard for their tradition, while

> introducing

> them into what Jesse Jackson refers to as the "cash language" of our

> time so

> that they can operate well in it.  It's not a matter of "either or,"

> but

> rather of knowing both, as if there were actually two different

> languages to

> learn, and being able to "walk around" (discourse) in either/both at

> the

> **appropriate** times.  Their other task is to know which is which.

>

> As a teacher we just let them know that this is the general outline of

> their

> task, and they will then be able to choose to do it--or not.  As

> teachers,

> we need not make what amounts to moral or qualitative judgments about

> someone's treasured dialect (or suggest that they must make such

> judgments

> about themselves)--the language that most in their home environment

> still

> speak, and will continue to speak.

>

> It's sort of like learning how to discourse in technical language (in

> any

> theoretical or professional field) after having learned "common"

> language

> and the meaning of its terms.   That is, using common meaning and its

> terms

> is one thing, and is appropriate when spoken at home or at the grocery

> store, etc.; however, using technical meaning is quite another; and

> when we

> discourse in our field, or in a specific technical-theoretical field,

> we are

> very specific and defined about what we mean; and we use completely

> different meanings for sometimes-similar terms that, to the grocery

> clerk,

> would come off as sounding completely "weird and foggy."

>

> Like we would not want to replace common with theoretical discourse in

> the

> grocery store (how awful would THAT be), we often do not want to

> suggest

> replacing a learner's dialect with what we mean by "Standard English."

> Trying to do so puts the learner in the position of having to choose

> between

> what is "better" (presumably Standard English) all of the time, and

> what is

> "worse" (presumably, their own dialect and "home language) all of the

> time.

> And there is often some shame involved--which has been a topic here on

> this

> forum recently.   This situation is entirely UNnecessary.

>

> On the other hand, there is a great and necessary value to standards,

> and of

> course to Standard English or any other written language--it's becoming

> a

> worldwide language.

>

> This is not all there is to it; however, if a learner is going to

> operate in

> the "cash language," i.e., work in an office, etc., they need to

> **also**

> know how to speak "Roman as the Roman's do."   <--we must make it what

> it

> is--to THEIR advantage to do so.  We add a differentiation, and not an

> either/or choice tinged with some sort of arrogance associated with

> "white"

> standard English.

>

> In brief, one way is to treat Standard English as if it were another

> language altogether, which in some cases and sense, it is.

>

> I hope this helps,

>

> Catherine B. King

> Adjunct Instructor

> Department of Education

> National University

> San Diego, CA

>

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Daphne Greenberg" <alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu>

> To: <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:31 AM

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 136] dialect

>

>

>> I was recently asked a question from an adult literacy teacher and I

>> wondered what folks on this listserv think. She teaches basic

> decoding

>> skills to adults who read at about the 3rd grade level. In addition

> to a

>> language experience approach, she also spends quite a bit of time

>> systematically teaching them how to sound out words. Many of her

> African

>> American students, when reading and sounding out words, read certain

>> words, the way they speak them. So for example, they read "ask" as

> "aks"

>> and "strawberry" as "skrawberry". Since a portion of her class is

>> focused on teaching letter-sound correspondences and applying it to

>> decoding new and unknown words should she be concerned about the way

>> they read those words? She says that during nondecoding time, she is

> not

>> concerned, because their dialect is their dialect and is just as

>> acceptable as standard english. However, she wondered if she is

> teaching

>> decoding from a standard english point of view, should she be

> correcting

>> the way they read those words?

>> What do people think?

>> Daphne

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> National Institute for Literacy

>> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

>> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/povertyracewomen

>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Poverty, Race, Women and Literacy mailing list

> PovertyRaceWomen at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

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> ***********************************************

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